skygiants | (no subject)

All the King Arthur for class (Idylls of the King, Alliterative Morte Arthur for the Crusades - for the claimed reason that a Templar makes a two-line appearance, but more I think because my prof just wanted to talk about Arthur) has got me feeling nostalgic, so I have been rereading The Once and Future King.

This was a Formative Book for me that I read more than once when I was young, but I had not read it in years; I knew it had been formative, but I did not realize quite how much so until I started stumbling across passages I recognized as forming part of my mental lexicon, if you know what I mean. For example: there is a passage about fancy Gothic tilting helms and how they are stupid because lances can get caught in them, and the best knights always wear plain helms. Whenever the subject of helmets comes up (as it does terribly often in my life, yes) this passage kind of presents itself to my mind, as my mental association with 'helmet'. And there are a bunch of passages like that, where I was reading along and recognizing my mental images of things, and figuring out that this book is where I must have gotten them from - it was actually slightly disconcerting. Apparently I was an extremely Formable child. Have any of you had experiences like this, rereading books from when you were little, or is my brain just exceptionally malleable clay?

(Of course, there were other bits that apparently made no impression at the time and I found rather disturbing reading at this date, like White's constant asides on the Race of Gauls, but oh well.)

Speaking of being Formed, though, I have another question for you all. Even without the general images of things, I have always known that this book in large part created my mental image of King Arthur's Court, albeit in some quite peculiar ways (for one thing, there is a bizarre fondness for Sir Kay that I have - I had considered it unaccountable until I read all the bits about how Kay was an overachiever who suffered from being Not Special and covered it over with sarcasm, and then I realized, no, it is not unaccountable at all, it is me being entirely predictable as usual). King Arthur is such an omnipresent figure that I think most of us have a sort of mental King Arthur in their set of stock characters; if you've got one, what do you think formed it most? Disney's Sword and the Stone, or the Dark is Rising series, or, I don't know, the Merlin miniseries that aired when I was about ten - I would make it a poll, but there are way too many options to include. But I am curious to know!

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From:

gramarye1971

The three that you mentioned certainly form a good portion of my mental King Arthur, though I can't leave out either (a) Graham Chapman from Monty Python and the Holy Grail or (b) Richard Harris from Camelot. When it comes to Merlin, my dominant mental image is obviously from TDIR, but I'm fairly sure my image of King Arthur is pretty much cobbled together from the bits and pieces of Arthurs I have known. Which is kind of what the Arthurian mythos ends up being, after all. ^_^

From:

ceitfianna

I agree, The Once and Future King permeates both Arthur and Robin legends.

I love that balance of this is how it wasn't like the stories and this is how it wasn't. A lot of how I think about Robin Hood and Will comes from T. H. White.

The first time I had Will truly read about himself was in The Sword and the Stone. I miss my copy, its packed away somewhere but its one of those books I can pick up and read with such joy and find something new.

Also its one of those books that when you read it aloud, its clear that a storyteller wrote it which causes me to have such amazing respect and joy in it.

From:

wanderlustlover

Oh. Oh. Where to start? The Once and Future King, The Mists of Avalon (especially this one from twelve forward), The Crystal Cave, the Attanasio series, Camelot the musical (one of my mothers favorites and thus heard frequently through out childhood).

As a big Arthurian reader there's a lot more, in literature and fiction as I started being more studious in my research and enjoyment, but those probably laid the foundations in my earlier childhood all best.

From:

the_croupier

Sort of a mish-mash, really. I've never found a depiction of Arthur that did very much for me, and when I started on medieval studies, the absence of a strong example by that point meant that the archaeological work (and bits and pieces of Geoffrey of Monmouth) pretty much supplanted any literary version.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Arthur is a Big Meh to me or anything--I'm still looking forward to sitting down with Ms. Bradley at some point, and I really enjoyed Dark is Rising. But I can't claim Arthur as much of a presence in my personal mythology.

From:

skygiants

Very true, which is why I think everyone's Arthur is a little bit different. :D

How could I forget to mention Monty Python and the Holy Grail? If I was to do a poll I bet it would come out way, way ahead. *amused*

I actually have never seen Camelot. And I probably should, but . . . on the other hand, The Triangle is my least favorite part of the story.

From:

skygiants

Yes! I was going to mention Robin too, but I decided that Arthur was enough for one post (and besides, my formative Robin is, um. *confesses* Robin Hood Men in Tights. I know! I can't help it!)

And me too - I love where White acknowledges his sources, and then goes, 'and here they were wrong.' (I also never picked up when I was young that he is actually writing an AU England in which Uther was the Conquerer instead of William; he consistently refers to the 'fictional kings', that are the actual historical kings. So my trend of reading AU history continues accidentally!)

My copy was read so often when I was little that it's kind of falling apart. Fortunately,

rymenhild has about ten copies, so when she heard this tragedy last year she generously gave me one of hers!

From:

skygiants

Oh Mists of Avalon. I read that in fifth grade, I remember, because a friend of my mother's lent it to me in a big lot of books - I think she must have been an Arthurian fan, actually, because that lot also included Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle - and it was a Formative Experience in sort of a different way . . . ("Wow, I did not expect to find a threesome here!")

Then in high school I kind of overdosed on Arthur for a bit and stopped reading Arthurian cycles, but all of a sudden now I'm feeling kind of a renewed interest, in a more scholarly way especially!

From:

skygiants

Interesting! I think Arthur kind of functions a different way as a character in his own right than he does as a Big Background Archetypal Figure like he is in Dark is Rising, where he appears more as kind of a signifier ----->insert Arthur here<----- than as a protagonist. Does he work better that way for you in fiction, do you think?

From:

the_croupier

As Big Background Archetypal Figure, you mean? I think at this point, yeah. With the history background, and my love of books like Foucault's Pendulum, the influence of Arthurian legend on Western culture is more interesting to me than the Arthurian legends themselves. So their use in modern conspiracy novels just works for me better.

It might have been different if I'd read, say, The Crystal Cave when I was younger. Alas, I just never got around to Arthurian fantasy.

From:

gramarye1971

The Triangle my least fave bit as well, which is why I pretty much fastforward all of those bits until I get to the end. And also why I heart Susan Cooper for glossing over it entirely in a very believeable way.

From:

skygiants

Yes, Susan Cooper is awesome for that, at least in relation to Arthur himself. (Though, admittedly, there still is kind of an Everyone Loves Gwen factor going on. *rueful* Do the additions of Owen and Caradog make it a quintangle?)

From:

skygiants

Makes sense! And I love seeing it used too - one of the most interesting things about this reread, really, was seeing how Tennyson and White both were trying to rework the Arthurian legends to fit what they felt were the needs of their own culture.

For me, though, one of the things I really got from White is an interest in the personalities of the various Round Table figures other than the Big Players who usually get written about (Arthur, Merlin, Lancelot, etc.) And often I find reading Arthurian fantasy fun in large part to see what gets done with them.

(I actually could never get into The Crystal Cave. *sheepish* I tried at least twice when I was younger and always dropped it a few chapters in. I finally managed to read and finish it this summer, though!)

From:

the_croupier

Mists of Avalon is the one I have my hopes set on. It's a book I've meant to read for years. I've heard criticisms of it as a story, but I still suspect I'll like it, and what with my pagan-ish sympathies, I like the idea of it.

And I suppose I'll keep trying Malory every once in a while, but I've always found him a big snooze whenever I do.

From:

skygiants

Mists of Avalon made perfect sense to me as a book when Rym told me it was written in Berkeley, and that is all I'm going to say. *grins*

Yeah, I've never been able to tackle Malory straight through, though it's still a goal for someday, and I like having him around for reference purposes. (I also enjoy how everyone who comes after will have large sections of going 'well, uh, Malory already talked about this, so I don't have to. :D!')

From:

ashen_key

I'll...get back to you, Becca *grins*

From:

skygiants

*giggles* I figured you would have an interesting/complex answer to this question!

From:

genarti

We have discussed how I haven't actually read tons of Arthuriana. I mean, some, absolutely, but mostly I love the prequels and the random Celtic myths in which hordes of Arthur's knights are questing for this or that because, I dunno, they're bored. As soon as it starts getting into the Doomed Love stuff, I get very bored and/or twitchy.

So most of my favorite Arthurs are the ones in which he's a background presence rather than a main character. The Dark is Rising series, obviously; Black Horses For The King (whose title I may be misremembering, but whatever); the aforementioned random myths; other reinventions. I grew up reading The Crystal Cave, though I didn't like the later books half so well; I think, upon reflection, that my mental Arthur may owe something to that book's Ambrosius. (Not too much, however, to the Arthur of the series, because the more focus his storyline gets the less interested I become.)

Merlin is perhaps the one I'm most fascinated with, but less because I have a definitive mental Merlin than because there are so many versions to choose from, and so many things to play with. The Crystal Cave; Merriman in The Dark Is Rising, of course; the goofy figure of The Sword In The Stone; and, again, later reinventions upon reinventions. It's the versatility of the archetype I love, here.

For most of the rest of the court... I don't have terribly strong mental versions, again. *wry* Except that my favorite Guineveres and Lancelots tend to minimize that whole love triangle aspect, and emphasize the "good people with the same greater loyalty and different personalities and priorities but great love for Arthur. And also competence." sort of thing.

From:

skygiants

Shockingly, I love it when hordes of Arthur's knights go off questing for this or thatbecause they're bored. >.>

I think I remember Black Horses for the King - was it McCaffrey? And it was very Historical rather than Mythological. (Ambrosius was, I think, the part I liked best about Crystal Cave, when I finally got around to reading it.)

Merlin himself has never been much of an obsession for me - I think because he's focused on so often in recent adaptations, and you know me, I like the marginalized ones. *grins* Though obviously I find him interesting. But yes, same on the Guinevere and Lancelot. More competence, less angst!

From:

genarti

It was indeed McCaffrey! And very Historical, yes. The narrator is a boy who is sent with a delegation to get the very best black warhorses from... somewhere... for King Arthur, and there is much wandering around assorted regions. And stuff. I reread it last year or something because it was so blurry in my memory, but it has quickly re-blurred again. I'm pretty sure Arthur himself is a fairly peripheral figure, although some of his knights show up more.

And I am shocked, SHOCKED I say, that you like the random boredom-quests. *grin*