skygiants | (no subject)

I was really excited to get to Men at Arms in my Discworld reread! I . . . did not realize how conflicted I was going to end up feeling about it.

Because -- okay, here's the thing. All the Guards books are about class and race and the other kinds of complicated unhappy -isms that exist in a city; we've talked about this already. And Discworld can do class great, it can at least make a decent effort on sex and gender, it is fantastic on 'war is crap' and general sentiments of the 'wouldn't it be great if people would stop killing each other over stupid things' variety. But Men at Arms is the Book About Racism like no other, and . . . it's not good enough.

(I'm going to leave aside the fact that the Discworld books always do that super-problematic fantasy novel thing where they conflate speciesism with racism because I don't have anything new to say about it, but that's the first issue, so. Anyway I'm just gonna go on talking about racism instead of speciesism because that is what the book's about and we all know it.)

So here's the thing: I think I could deal with the plot of the human members of the Watch starting out racist and learning their valuable life lesson about becoming less racist. I mean, I think our lovable characters in the Watch should be shown to be horribly racist and it should shock us, because they are based on a police force that is very often horribly racist. That would be great! . . . if we got to get into the heads of the actual people who were affected by that racism, and those people got a chance to get angry and properly call them on it.

But every time Carrot or Vimes says something that's terrible, either no one else is around to get mad, or we don't see it, or -- you know, it's Angua, and she gets hurt because Carrot says terrible things about the undead and she's crushing on Carrot; she gets hurt, but she doesn't get mad. Which would be fine if there were other times we saw people getting their righteous anger on, with narrative support, but we don't see that. We don't see that righteous anger directed at our favorite characters, not when they're being terrible. Dwarves and trolls get mad at each other, sure, but it's written into the plot that nobody ever gets mad at Carrot. Angua gets sarcastic about Vimes, and then Carrot gets all snitty and proves to her that she's Wrong About Vimes and Angua apologizes and stammers that she didn't know -- and Angua shouldn't have to apologize for thinking Vimes is a dick. I love Vimes a lot and you guys all know that, but he is a racist sexist asshole on top of his overall misanthropy, and the fact that he's nice to widows and orphans and will generally deep-down do the right thing doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to think he's a dick for that.

But of course, I'm forgetting -- there's Cuddy! Cuddy gets mad! Cuddy even gets mad and sarcastic at humans! Cuddy even gets to be a POV character sometimes!

So of course Cuddy is the character who dies tragically.

Don't get me wrong -- there are a lot of things to love about Men at Arms. Cuddy and Detritus' epic friendship is great! It's Angua's first book! Lady Sybil is in it!... although really Lady Sybil gets the incredibly short end of the stick in this book, but that's another rant that would take a whole other post. The Patrician is in fine form all around!

But in terms of what the book is, at heart, about . . . it's not good enough.

Crossposts: http://bookelfe.livejournal.com/287478.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

innerbrat

This... does not get better.

From:

skygiants

:-/

From:

innerbrat

I'm pained! I'm all "THESE ARE MY COMFORT NOVELS NOOOOO!" but but but.

Yes.

From:

skygiants

YOU KNOW I LOVE THEM TOO. I call them out because I love! But . . . yeah.

From:

innerbrat

I KNOW YOU DO.

And still, he continues to write about race from the PoV of humans. And in later books there are humans of different races, he just never mentions it.

And.

I wonder how much these books shaped my own ideas about race when I was a teenager. VERY MUCH, I reckon. Although they weren't as problematic as some other authors I was reading then that I could mention >_>

From:

skygiants

It is emphatically true that it can ALWAYS GET WORSE. And I'm not sure I was reading much as a kid that was better, exactly . . . (except Laurence Yep. ALWAYS ALL THE HEARTS FOR LAURENCE YEP.)

I mean -- from a baseline humanism perspective, "people are all people and let's not kill people about stupid things" isn't a bad message, but these are books for grown-ups and they just don't really acknowledge how infinitely more complicated everything is than that.

From:

innerbrat

They're books for grown ups, but they're books for white grown ups by a white grown up about white grown ups. About how racism is bad, but only because of how it affects white people. (It makes Vimes' city complicated, for one)

I'm trying to think of non white, non human PoV characters. In any of them.

Angua, I guess (but, yeah). Two-Flower. Brutha. Cheery and Cuddy occasionally.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

From:

campkilkare

I would say Vimes gets angry about racism at first because it messes up his city, but in time because it makes him uncomfortable about being human and having the privilege he has had sort of pushed on him by the course of events, and then ultimately in the latest books because it enrages him in a fundamental way; all his repressed anger and class guilt have been mapped onto species prejudice, to the point where it has turned into a giant red button for him.

I think the absence of non-human POV characters, and the reason everything has to be filtered through the empathy or reactions of a human, stems from the larger problem of "species = race" that Becca alludes to. I mean, non-humans make difficult POV characters, because they... aren't human, and all of your readers are. Which then has very unfortunate implication when you equate it to race, and if that is the ONLY way you are writing about race, allows you to indulge lazy habits of thinking and talking about race. In a sense, the real problem is that by mapping race "away" onto nonhumans, you make a world where the human POV is necessarily a white POV.

The characterization and motives of the non-POV non-human characters do get more complicated and... correctly alien, over time, though! In that sense Men At Arms is a very transitional book in terms of taking non-humans seriously as "people". It is not good enough, in retrospect, but it is the turning point where it's stated outright that the way nonhumans had been appearing had never really been good enough, and they begin to slowly shaded in, in a process that is not and never will be over.

It's explicitly highlighted in... I think it's Thud, when Vimes realizes that the first time he ever saw Detritus he was chained to a wall as a possession, essentially, of the Drum. And now he is... well, doing all the stuff Detritus does in that book, to keep things short.

In some ways I think the books tend to be written from an unarticulated, generic human Morporkian POV, even when the narrative explicitly criticizes the deficiencies in that POV. Trolls are a bit dumb and violent, not the kind of people you want to spend time with, and dwarfs are all kind of weird and obsessed with gold, and God knows what goes on behind those loincloths, but of COURSE they're people; of course you can't buy and sell them or just shrug if they get killed. Just... not quite. And every so often the story being told inside that narrative breaks open and it becomes clear that things are a lot more complicated than the narration has acknowledged...

(The most obvious one I can think of is in The Truth, when Otto steps in to save William and clarifies that, no, this guy we have been riding around on the shoulder of all book doesn't really get it! He's actually kind of a racist twerp! But he's trying, and when you are surrounded by racist twerps you have to side with the one who's trying, at least. And then we swerve right back to William's POV.)

From:

batyatoon

Oh, William de Worde. I have such a soft spot for him, you don't even know.

it is a Simon-Tam-headvoice-shaped soft spot

From:

skygiants

Trolls are a bit dumb and violent, not the kind of people you want to spend time with

This is a bit of a sidebar, but I forgot to talk about in my review how RIDICULOUSLY TRAGIC the story of the trolls suddenly becomes in Men at Arms and how that tragedy is played off as a joke. You have to come to the big city to send money back, but the climate's wrong and you literally lose your ability to think properly! This may be a metaphor for immigration and cultural and language barriers and all, but it is also horror on the level of the worst of Stephen King, when you think about it. Speaking of things that are more complicated and terrible than the narration acknowledges!

(Also you are 100% correct on everything to do with mapping species to race and the problems thereof.)

From:

campkilkare

Yeah. I think that is a much overlooked part of the saga of Detritus--he didn't just get his dignity back because people handed it to him instead of chaining him to a wall, he earned it back one slow, grinding thought at a time. He slowly and painfully learned to be smart with a brain that could never reach "clever" outside of a blizzard. The whole clever-cunning-smart thing is a recurring motif, but I never really thought of it in that light.

From:

campkilkare

Also this discussion probably needs to be revisited when Becca gets to Snuff. *bites my tongue*

From:

tiltingheartand

I actually came here to say this, so instead I will say OH GOD YES THIS and hush otherwise.

From:

innerbrat

I WASN'T GOING TO MENTION IT.

From:

skygiants

Lobsang . . .? Does Lobsang count? I honestly can't remember.

Mrs. Gogol gets some brief POVs but mostly just to establish her as Exotic And Powerful.

From:

campkilkare

Prrrobably. Half fake-Tibetan and half anthropomorphic personification. But both halves of him were mostly raised in Ankh-Morpork, without contact of any kind with their/his father's culture. Lobsang does head back there for a while, though.

From:

innerbrat

I'd forgotten that Wen was fake!Tibetan, because - yep, it's a Not-mentioned-on-the-Discworld thing, and I really can only tell whether someone's a HoC (Human of Color) because Colon's racist about them (Visit and Ping).

And then Lobsang has his own difficulties, because half of him is non-neurotypical, and guess which half becomes the 'dominant' personality when he's one person?

I'd argue that not having contact with one of his parents' culture doesn't make a person white, though.

From:

campkilkare

No, but if they aren't recognized by anyone in the narrative or even the narrator as non-white, and they are written more or less indistinguishably from a white protagonists, AND they don't have access to the culture they come from--well, it gets pretty academic if they count as a non-white character or not.

From:

batyatoon

Devil's advocate here for a second: there's a lot of white people who don't have much access to the culture they originally come from either.

And now suddenly I wonder where Ankh-Morpork was colonized from.

From:

campkilkare

I don't think it was colonized from anywhere in particular--doesn't the Tower of Art date back to the prehistoric wizard wars, and the city sort of grew up around it?

Even London went through its phase of being a hovel on the outskirts of a vast Roman hegemony, but I thiiiink Ankh-Morpork has always been the seat of empires, in all the history we've ever gotten.

From:

kate_nepveu

I am behind and have not posted but Brutha is NOT described as brown--I have several electronic bookmarks where his face is red or pale, because I found it very weird. (Vorbis too, except for his funky eyes, I think.)

(Is Pteppic even described as brown? Must check, but I don't remember. Also amazed at myself that I didn't ask this question earlier.)

Edited Date: 2012-04-10 08:54 am (UTC)

From:

innerbrat

I think the failure to describe Pteppic as brown is Pterry's 'color blind' storytelling rather than a decision to make him white. I don't endorse this style: I think it's contributory to these race problems. But I think there are a lot of characters that 'default' to white because they are not described as anything.

On that note, are Brutha's 'pale' and 'red' faces describes as an emotional reaction or a physical description? I listed him as a PoC protagonist because Omnians are elsewhere described as brown or 'foreign looking' at least (c.f. Constable Visit - I've been binging on the Watch books recently).

From:

campkilkare

COMPLETE TANGENT: this discussion reminds me of some Homestuck drama. The artist made an off-hand statement that the characters, portrayed as paper-white sprites with black outlines, don't really have any "official" race per se, and that he had drawn them that way to look generic and literally colorless. The fandom subsequently lost its shit.

Now on the one hand, it's certainly facile in the extreme to say "oh, but I never SAID they were white." But what he really meant, and later clarified it as, was, "yeah, most people probably take them as white, and sometimes I think of them that way myself, but I have tried to make it a point to avoid any overt signifiers, so if you want to project a different background onto their literally blank canvas, feel free. There's no official right answer." And to some people that was an opportunity to create a flood of non-typical fanarts but to some of them it was just so completely unacceptable.

From:

kate_nepveu

One of the passages describing Brutha I have flagged is as "a round pink face" while not under any particular emotional stress; the "pale" is actually Vorbis.

From:

innerbrat

Fair enough. It's been a while since I read it.

From:

esmenet

*sigh* Yeah.

I do think he got better at this, b/c of Detritus' super-great moment of righteous anger at Vimes in Thud!, where he's just like "I know you're a policeman, I know you have to push at everything, but leave my cultural things alone, Mister Vimes!" And his portrayal of non-humans has definitely evolved over the years.

Unfortunately, apart from Two-Flower and various Interesting Times and Jingo characters, his portrayal of actual POC in Discworld is not really existent, never mind the quality. (As for non-Discworld books, I remember liking Mau from Nation an awful lot, but it's been years since I last read it cover-to-cover.)

The core problem with the Discworld novels is the narrative voice, I think. In some ways I love it (snark! so much snark!) but we always seem to be looking from the 'average Morporkian' viewpoint, which just happens to be white straight cis mostly-human dude (and sometimes lady).

From:

skygiants

Yeah, I am looking forward to (hopefully) seeing it evolve at least a little - I do remember Thud! being better, but I also haven't reread it since it came out.

(I also totally loved Mau from Nation though, and I did read that relatively recently! HE WAS BEST.)

But yeah -- you are the second person here to point out the 'average Morporkian' viewpoint, and I think that's a large part of the problem.