(no subject)

[skygiants]

A day behind everyone else:


I liked lots of things about this episode. I liked Matt actually getting to act sort of heroic, even if it went wonky at the end; I liked poor Mohinder meeting Sylar, even if half of me wants to go "come on, he got conned by a double agent in disguise already"; I even like Mrs. Bennet's illness (sorry, Shati!) because I really, really want to see how Mr. Bennet reacts if it gets worse. (Sidenote, here: I love Mr. Bennet reacting to things just in general. He's so interestingly complex, and ambiguous, and I love him when he's creepy at the good guys and I love him more when he's genuinely concerned for his family. I also perhaps think it's hilarious that he remembered and liked my mom from high school even though she couldn't remember him at all.

. . . hang on, that's a little fishy, now that I think about it. OH NOES MR. BENNET BRAINWASHED MY MOM!!!!!!!!

. . . anyways.)

But what I want to talk about is Hiro and Ando's storyline, here. In general, I'm kind of sad that they've gone back on their own, because I loved their dynamics with . . . well, everyone else. They just kind of enhanced the awesome quotient of everyone on the show. But now they're on their own again, their storyline feels - cute, but vaguely irrelevant; it doesn't really seem important to SAVING THE WORLD that Hiro's family dynamics have been sorted out in a single-episode storyline.

This episode, I hope, will lead to something more relevant, so it's not that that I'm poking at. What bothered me about them this time was this: it's turning out that Ando never gets to be right. As a lifelong lover of the sidekick, this distresses me beyond measure, because it's something I always worry is going to happen. It happens in Harry Potter; whenever Ron and Harry argue, it's because Ron is in the wrong. It doesn't happen in Avatar, which is one of the reasons that I love it, because Sokka - the comic relief, the only one without OMGPOWERS - gets to disagree with the main characters because he's right, not just to create difficulties for them. Having superpowers does not automatically make you wiser than everyone else. And Ando's points to Hiro in this episode about doing what's right, about being a hero despite being ordinary, were completely valid and something I'd been hoping to see from him. And then it turns out it's just silly Ando falling for the wrong hot chick again.

I love Hiro. But - pretty soon - I really, really want him to be wrong, judgment-wise, and to let Ando be right.

Comments

[agonistes]

Ando and Xander need to start a support group.

[shati.livejournal.com]

This may be the exception that proves the rule -- I haven't thought about it much -- but Ando was right about Hiro going back to save Charlie, right? Which is one of the more tense arguments they've had so far.

[skygiants]

They should!

A "the only time we get authorial backing should not be when we're making stupid judgment calls about Riley"-type support group. (Okay, there may not be a Riley yet for Hiro. But there will be! Someday!)

[skygiants]

Hmm. True, but that gets presented as sort of a "hero's hopeless journey" kind of thing - Hiro can't save her, but he Learns Valuable Lessons from trying. It's noble and necessary that he tries. When Ando does it, it's just stupid.

I mean, even in this episode, Ando goes "we went back to save Charlie for you!" and Hiro is all "CHARLIE WAS SPECIAL," which, okay, she was, I am not denying Charlie's awesomeness especially as compared with Giant Vegas Stripper, but throws the support right back to Hiro's side in both arguments. If you see what I mean.

(Random sidenote: when the stripper stood up to dwarf Ando, I totally thought she was going to turn out to be a guy. Which . . . would have reinforced the 'Ando is always wrong' theme, but would also have been hilarious.)

[shati.livejournal.com]

I don't know -- Ando also successfully stole the purse (without Hiro's help), and Hiro was just as duped as he was.

And I didn't get the impression the show agreed with Hiro re: "CHARLIE WAS SPECIAL." I thought we were supposed to agree with Ando.

(ME TOO. Man. *sad*)

[shati.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about Ando yet, but I definitely don't think that was the only time Xander got authorial backing -- he's the one Joss says is most like himself, he does the "Into the Woods" role often in less sucky episodes, and in S7 he's practically Saint Xander.

[skygiants]

True. By the later seasons he gets backing a lot more. But in the first three seasons he is kind of universal bad-judgent guy, you have to admit. ("Look, I'm going to hang out after school with TEACHER GIANT INSECT!!! :D!!!")

So . . . if Ando loses an eye . . . he gets to become a saint? I can get behind this.

[skygiants]

Hiro wasn't just as duped, though - from the beginning he's got a bad feeling, and then there's the whole "YOU MAY FOOL ANDO BUT YOU DO NOT FOOL ME" thing with the girl. Which at least implied to me that he'd been judging her semi-correctly all along.

Well, I agreed with Ando! *giggles* But I was not sure that the show wanted me to. Because Vegas Lady was clearly not as cool as Charlie, etc.

(He would have been classier about it than Dick, at any rate.

. . . awww, how cute would the alternative storyline have been, where she turns out to be a guy and Hiro and Ando chivalrously help her anyways?)

[shati.livejournal.com]

I don't have to admit! As early as "When She Was Bad" he is the voice of moral authority, or at least sorely needed muppet spanking. (And that's if we're sticking to conflicts between Buffy and Xander.) As for giant insect teacher, well, Willow had the internet demon and Buffy had Parker. I don't quite see that as on the same level as the sidekick always being wrong. Well, that and Willow is also sidekick -- in a lot of ways more traditional sidekick than Xander.

I mean, I think Xander was always functioning to some degree as the moral center of the gang. The writing thereof wasn't always nuanced, balanced, and good, but I never thought his disagreements with Buffy were just to show how right she was.

[skygiants]

I have not actually seen "When She Was Bad" yet. *confesses*

I dunno. I think Xander is the heart of the gang, sort of, but not the moral center the same way Wallace is in VM. Like, Sweeney says how Xander annoys her because of the way he relates to Buffy without understanding her conflicts - and though I like Xander a lot, I do remember him getting set up against that. Which I would provide specific examples for, but I have not seen early seasons in way too long. So there *admits, with decorum* you have the advantage over me.

Willow is a traditional sidekick, yeah, but she's also special - in terms of intelligence, in terms of witchcraft. In terms of the way people go to her with their problems. Look at Angel sitting in Willow's room chatting and asking for her help.

[shati.livejournal.com]

"When She Was Bad" is possibly Xander's finest hour in calling people on their shit. (I totally sympathize with Buffy, unsurprisingly, but I admit this still.)

Okay, hypocritically, I don't actually think they did a good job of showing Xander being the heart of the group -- I mostly took that as a "shit, how do we describe what Xander does?" in "Primeval." In early seasons Willow seemed to need the gang most, and did the most smoothing over of conflict, and Buffy was the one who glued it back together in S4. They were lost without Giles in S6. Buffy is the reason it exists in the first place. Willow held it together when Buffy was dead. I mean, I love that they call Xander the heart and Buffy the fist, because I am easily pleased with gender reversals, but I don't actually see it until later.

Which may have to do with the vagueness of "heart of the group." *g*

That was part of my point -- Willow starts out standard female sidekick, and goes on to surpass Buffy in terms of power. (And even importance to the story. In S6 the climax of the season is all Willow, and Xander, come to think of it. Buffy is peripheral.) So whether or not Xander gets shafted -- which he does in screentime, IMO, though not in Being Right -- overall sidekicking in the show is pretty profitable.

Not really relevant, tentatively thought through: it occurred to me a while ago that Xander is the only member of the gang who's got much power in the real world, except possibly Giles. (Late season, here -- I don't know how much the working class background is fanon and how much it's canon, but there's that in earlier seasons.) He has a very well-paying job where he's in a position of authority. He's also a white male, whereas Willow is a Jewish witch and Buffy is a single mom. The superpowers may be balancing out the scales. (Giles has more of a supernatural role? thing? but not so much powers.) We don't see this play out on-screen much, but I wonder if any of it was intentional.

[shati.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I do not know.

I think possibly I agree with you that Ando is not coming out gold here, but don't actually mind. Also I should possibly rewatch. Honestly, though, I thought Hiro come off pretty bad here too, and was meant to.

(AWWW. WANT!)

[shati.livejournal.com]

A Jewish lesbian, I meant!

[skygiants]

Clearly, I need to see "When She Was Bad."

Joss Whedon loves him some Scoobies. I am not arguing this. *giggles* It is one of the reasons why I like Buffy! Since, as you know, your identification with Buffy herself and mine differ to vast degrees. And I would agree with the Xander becoming more the 'heart' later, actually. *changes position like ze wind!* I think . . . hmmm. In early seasons, there's a lot of gender-reversal "let's rescue Xander!", actually, which I think the writers were very much having fun with. He doesn't get to do a lot that's useful. That may be my beef, in fact, more than whether or not he gets to be right. When he's useful, it's because he loves Buffy so much (see: end of S1), not because of anything he does. So in that sense, he is the heart. But yes. I may have lost track of what I'm trying to prove, here. But I think he gets to be right more, later, because it's the way in which he can be useful.


Response to tentative thought: this is definitely a later season thing, and I think it's interesting that there's a very clear moment when Xander realizes that power. The episode that I can't remember the name of with Positive Xander and Negative Xander - and that episode totally plays on the expectations the show's set up that Xander's always going to be a loser, unsuccessful, the punching bag of the show. And then is like "hey, he can do something useful after all." (And I would bet anything that, as the white male, his early role is deliberate reversal, likeI said above.)

[skygiants]

Jewish lesbians totally have power in the real world! . . . um.

Well, my aunts do okay?

[skygiants]

It makes me sad when they both come off bad, really. I want them both to come out good! I feel that Hiro can be wrong without coming off as an asshole.

(ME TOO. Someone write the fanfic!)

[shati.livejournal.com]

Hmm -- I am thinking about finales, and in "Prophecy Girl" he convinces Angel (who's too chicken! hee) to join him and does the CPR-ing and brings Buffy back to life. In "Becoming" he helps Buffy fight while Willow stays behind in the hospital. In "Graduation Day" he is Key Guy. I don't actually disagree that he gets rescued fairly often, but Willow even more so -- there's that quote from Joss about how early on they realized the best way to get the audience worried was to threaten Willow.

In early seasons Xander was less about the emotional support (first I really remember of that is S4) -- more about the...I don't know. Judgment, sometimes good and sometimes bad. And the deciding to charge in -- for all he's rescued, he does a lot of cavalrying himself. And then there's "The Zeppo"...

Though I can see why you'd resent his role -- he's rescued, his role shrinks even as he is saintified, his role tends to be defined by his love life more than Buffy's or Willow's, it's a lot of stuff that would annoy me the genders weren't reversed. I just...you know. Love it because they are.

(Oh, definitely.) And yes. Just, possible reason why he doesn't need superpowers. Meta-ly speaking.

[shati.livejournal.com]

Yes. :( TO BOTH.

[shati.livejournal.com]

You know what I mean! *shakes tiny fist*

Anyway, Willow also has no income. Which really should have been addressed.

[skygiants]

I don't really resent his role. Not nearly as much as I resent other sidekick roles. I mean, it usually doesn't bother me when I'm watching; I go 'hah, Xander!' with the rest of the world.

But I do think he is shown to be Less Competent than the others 95% of the time. And it bothers me when the one who is powerless and 'unspecial' and the comic relieef is also assumed to be non-competent. . . . I also think it bothers me more, now that I've seen really good examples where they can be ordinary and funny and very competent. Damn you, Avatar!

("The Zeppo" I have also not seen. There are large gaps in my Buffeducation. *tragic*)

I get the meta reasons for making it the way it is, I really do. And I agree with them, in part. Buffy started as a genre inversion, and I think it is very cool! But I am glad that he got to be competent at building by the end, because years of him being incompetent was enough to hammer the point home.

. . . I need a Xander icon.

[shati.livejournal.com]

..."The Zeppo" is "The Replacement," but actually good and brilliant. It is all about how Xander rocks and nobody notices. Like. I am not exaggerating or interpreting. That is what it is ABOUT. We cannot have this discussion if you have not seen it!!

I also just plain sympathized most with Xander when he was being pathetic, so there's that. NOT THAT I AM PATHETIC IN ANY WAY EVER.

[shati.livejournal.com]

If you wish to outsource, name your scene and I can icon! though not tonight.

[skygiants]

And yet we are having it! :O Does this conversation then not exist?

. . . however, I will admit to a now redoubled desire to see it, because it um sounds sort of exactly designed to appeal to my sympathies.

I, too, sympathize with Xander when he is being pathetic! But then on the occasions where he got to be awesome, it is like, "look, IF HE CAN ROCK THEN I MIGHT CONCEIVABLY ALSO DO SO IN A SIMILAR SITUATION. Being as I am neither super-strong nor super-smart nor super-tweedy."

[skygiants]

I am hindered in my scene-naming by aforementioned not having seen in ages. Um. Whatever is easiest? If you have time! Eventually! *vagues about vaguely* *also, loves*

[shati.livejournal.com]

Come visit me and we'll watch it! And "When She Was Bad" too. *promptly*

*and perhaps implausibly*

This is true! I sympathize with all the Scoobies and glee when they are awesome, but possibly Xander least because we are alikest in lack of super magic powers but I think least alikest in personality. (Not counting Giles.)

[shati.livejournal.com]

Maybe I will be sneaky and make you a ZEPPO icon.

[skygiants]

Vice versa and bring them! I have better weather.

I do as well! But. Hmmm. I am least alikest Buffy, I think, and probably most alikest early Willow in personality almost to the uncomfortably so sometimes as regards presonality flaws. (Also I saw later seasons first, which I am not alikest to her, but do have her as significantly more evil. You know.) So I gravitate to Xander as midground.

[skygiants]

:O! It is like subliminal messaging.

[shati.livejournal.com]

I think early Willow is adorable, but I identify more with late Willow. *admits* And I'm not so much alikest with Buffy -- we have a big nothing in common -- as she has some key character traits that cause Identification and I tend to like main characters.

I'm not sure whether I sympathize more with Xander or Willow. *ponders*

[shati.livejournal.com]

*waves tentacles*

[shati.livejournal.com]

...also, you do have better weather. You also go to school on the other side of the continent.

[skygiants]

Whereas I tend to tolerate main characters and emotionally connect with the sidekicks. Not always! Just. Often.

. . . okay, often in Joss Whedon shows especially.

*curious* What with late Willow do you identify with?

[skygiants]

MINOR DETAIL.

[shati.livejournal.com]

She's EVIL!!!!

I mean. I don't know if it's hardcore identification, and I actually think I'm much less insecure than Willow (strange feeling! I am not the securest of secures), but I find her flaws more compelling? I mean -- unrequited puppy love doesn't really grab me. But Willow going off the deep end of denial and hubris (aside from stupid crack allegory), totally interesting. And S7 Willow with the guilt! I totally sympathize with guilt. And I liked her hair in S7.

Also, I woulda stabbed the fawn. With that same expression.

[skygiants]

There is that!

(It is hard to be more insecure than Willow, admittedly. *pats her*)

- well, I too return sympathizing with S7 Willow and the guilt. But she is sane again! Makes it easier.

S5-6 loses my - not my sympathy, but my identification, I think, somewhat - because it is all about ze romance and ze power, and ze romance as equated to power and ze power as equated to crack. And while the power dynamics/need for power thing can I think be done very well and identifiably, it did not grab me in this case.

I identify with Principal Snyder, dammit!

[shati.livejournal.com]

I didn't like S5 Willow very much, much. Actually ditto most of S6.

"Bargaining" Willow, though, I'm with her all the way. She and S7 Willow were who I was thinking of, mostly.

I love early Willow, but pretty much completely from the outside, if that makes any sense. Less so with later Willow.

[skygiants]

It makes total sense. It's the way I feel about early Buffy, actually - I love her a lot more than I do later Buffy, but it's still pretty much from the outside.

I'm trying to think of who has my sympathies in "Bargaining," and I think it's probably Dawn. But I respect Willow there more than I do for a lot of the rest of the season.

[shati.livejournal.com]

Dawn totally has my sympathies there. POOR DAWNIE OMG. D: And obvi Buffy. And actually Xander.

Possibly this is why I like "Bargaining" so much.

Crack addict Willow, btw, I have nearly succeeded in blocking entirely from my memory.

[skygiants]

And the Buffybot! *hugs the Buffybot*

. . . would I were so lucky. *wistful*

[batyatoon]

I really agree about Hiro and Ando, especially on this count:

What bothered me about them this time was this: it's turning out that Ando never gets to be right.

Especially since her name was Hope. It should have been a sign, dammit.

[skygiants]

It should have been! It's the way the show works. *sulky* Except apparently not if you don't have superpowers.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

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