(no subject)

[skygiants]

So one of the panels I attended at Arisia was a panel on kings and class and aristocracy in fantasy. It was probably one of my favorite panels overall, and the panelists all had extremely interesting things to say, but one thing that I was hoping for that didn't really happen was any kind of discussion of the fantasy that does buck the trend and go full-on republican.

...well, okay, a lot of people brought up Terry Pratchett, but the fact that no one could think of anything besides Discworld is PRETTY TELLING, I think. And while Ankh-Morpork isn't monarchist, it's hella dictatorial, so we're setting Discworld aside for now, officially, as of this sentence.

Anyway, later that day genarti and sandrylene and I sat down and started making a list, and this is what we came up with:

- Lloyd Alexander's Westmark books
- Frances Hardinge's Fly By Night/Fly Trap and Gullstruck Island
- China Mieville's Bas Lag books
- Hiromu Arakawa's Fullmetal Alchemist
- N.K. Jemisin's The Killing Moon, but then SPOILER ALERT they get the monarchy back at the end of the sequel, so ....
- Diana Wynne Jones' Dalemark books ... sort of ....? This is really a stretch, because for all its proletarian impulses and critique of aristocracy, The Crown of Dalemark does conclude pretty emphatically with "HERE IS THE NEW DIVINELY ORDAINED MONARCH." My only justification is that if I remember correctly Dalemark does become a constitutional republic by Maewen's time, but I might just be making that up.
- Fuyumi Ono's Twelve Kingdoms also, sort of, which is even MORE of a stretch because the entire SERIES is about divinely ordained kings, it's just that it's also a really well done critique of the system ... but it's not like they can get rid of the divinely ordained kings ... yeah, as much as I love it Twelve Kingdoms shouldn't really be on here. This is how desperate we were.

There is also a subset of republican/revolutionary fantasy, which is the books where instead of revolting against kings everyone just straight up revolts against the gods:

- Philip Pullman's Golden Compass
- Anne Ursu's Cronus Chronicles, which ruined me a little for the Rick Riordan books by setting up a world in which Greek gods were real and had authority over humanity and then taking it to its logical conclusion of "AND THAT WOULD BE THE ACTUAL WORST, LET'S FIX THAT"
- Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens, kind of

And ... that's it? That's all we could think of. But that can't possibly be it it. Help! What are some other republican/revolutionary fantasies?

("What about stuff like the Hunger Games?" said Gen. "YA dystopia doesn't count," I said, "because it's not fantasy, it's sci-fi, and it's working off a different set of tropes." And then we argued about that for a bit, but the end result is I'm ruling out stuff like the Hunger Games. Revolution against an oppressive regime is absolutely a staple of the YA dystopia paradigm, but I think that's a different conversation.

We are also none of us all that well versed in urban fantasy, but someone on the panel pointed out, quite rightly, that like 60% of urban fantasy involves some kind of fairy court that is totally aristocratic/monarchical, and I'm pretty sure that the other 40% involves some kind of strictly hierarchical werewolf or vampire social structure with an alpha werewolf/vampire king/etc. That said, if anyone has an example of a book in which someone LEADS THE REVOLUTION against the monarchical urban fantasy fairies/hierarchical werewolves, please do feel free to throw it into the pot!)

I am also one hundred percent sure I am not the first person to discuss this topic on the Internet, so if anybody has links to other posts/lists along these lines, that would also be great.

Comments

[percysowner]

I don't read a lot of urban fantasy. The only ones I do read are by Rob Thurman they are set in present day America and there is no alpha structure, so there is no revolution against it. The Cal Leandros series has vampires and werewolves but there is no overarching structure. So there is at least one urban fantasy in a democratic society.

[laceblade]

I haven't yet finished Cold Steel, but I'm pretty sure a revolution's going to happen by the end of this book, making Kate Elliott's Spiritwalker Trilogy fit!

[lacewood]

Does... organised crime count? Margaret Ronald's Spiral Hunt involves bringing down a ruling hierarchy in Boston that is basically the MAGIC MOB. So far as I recall most of said organised crime involved faceless corporate types with not much of a central king figure or hereditary basis of succession (unless I have totally failed to remember this being a thing). Spoiler alert, the magic mob is not replaced with a monarchy.

Kate Griffin's Matthew Swift urban fantasy series had the Midnight Mayor, who is typically chosen by their equivalent of corporate succession, so it's arguably a corporate/republican system (though the in-series version is an outlier to this for various reasons) There are no revolutions.

The Borribles trilogy by Michael de Larrabeiti is arguably ANARCHIST urban fantasy (the Borribles operate on a gang system, and are basically rebelling against Everything Ever)

Sadly I am completely failing to think of any non-urban fantasy examples that might remotely fit. Wow, this is amazing. As I recall, at least some of the MANY powers causing chaos in Phillip Reeve's Mortal Cities quartet had to be run on a non-monarchist system...? /clutching at straws here That's basically post-apocalyptic dystopia though.

[sophia_sol]

Oh, interesting question. Going through my list of books read in the last few years, I'm not coming up with much that fits the bill. Hmmm, I will have to think about this some more.

(but all of a sudden I really really want to read about the french revolution in Temeraire-verse!)

[hebethen]

One of the Circle of Magic books was set in a semirepresentatively governed state, I believe. I think the structure of the fairy world in the Artemis Fowl books was also representative government? All of Jasper Fforde's literature meta-y stuff, if it counts as fantasy, has elected government in it somewhere also, although there are some mythical figures that pop by once in a while and everyone generally defers to them if they show up. The wizards in Young Wizards aren't monarchial, no?

[kate_nepveu]

Does _FMA_ really count? There's still military rule at the end of it, after all.

The Kitty Norville books show how the conventional werewolf pack structure can be abusive, but four books in just replaces the leadership of that pack.

I can't remember what happens to the Arameri rule in _The Kingdom of Gods_. I should really get on re-reading that.

[minkhollow]

Five out of six places in Villains By Necessity have democracy-shaped things going on! ...but whether the people actually chose that or Mizzamir forced everyone into it (for the Greater Good, of course) is up in the air, and I lean toward the latter.

Either way, the state of the government isn't the driving plot point, though I do imagine a couple of those installed democracies fall to bits post-canon, and the others take a turn toward the kind of mudslinging we see every year.

[newredshoes]

I am absolutely certain that socialist/communist dwarves has been a thing I've seen or read multiple times now. Oh! I remember: one was in The Book of Lost Things, which I loathed, and the first example I saw was in The Tenth Kingdom.

[luzula]

...I got nothing.

I think this is partly why I read more SF than I do fantasy these days--it's more politically interesting. Dammit, there should be more revolutions in fantasy.

Oh, wait! I got one! Elizabeth Moon's The Legacy of Gird is all about a farmers' revolt against the aristocracy. Pity her latest books in the same world are all about the rightfully ordained king, yadda yadda.

[aberration]

I'm not sure if this requires we know the... mechanics of it, or it not be kind of fuzzy and sloppy because Rowling just wants to make fun of it, but Harry Potter did specifically reject any royalty/monarchy for the fantasy part of its world?

(ETA: And because I'm LITERALLY USING AN ICON FROM IT, but A:TLA/LoK does eventually get a Republic.)

I'd agree on THG though, not because it's YA but yeah because it's sci-fi, and sci-fi does have a whole genre history of non-monarchical dictatorships. But I was also talking about it last night with regard to The Giver and how what I'm seeing out of that movie adaptation is basically THG knock-off (and I'm SO MAD).

[dorothean]

The only thing I can think of now is Philippa Gregory's Wideacre trilogy, which is really debatable.

Disqualifiers:
- marketed as historical fiction, not fantasy
- there IS a monarchy because it's set in England
- the protagonist's connection to the land is the most magical element and it's all about hereditary land ownership -- although if I remember correctly this does get challenged in some way, and possibly even completely dismantled by the end of the trilogy (it's been a while since I read them)

Qualifiers:
- there is magic
- the first book is set in the 18th century and is all about enclosure and potential farmers' revolts (n.b. I don't remember how well Gregory wrote about this -- I read these ages before I learned about enclosure anywhere else), and not in such a way that happy ending = end of revolts, restoration of status quo

[raven]

The Annals of the Western Shore books, by Ursula Le Guin. The only one that deals with it in great detail is Voices, but this is actually one of the reasons I love it so much: there is a central character who plays the typical fantasy role of divinely-mandated-leader-whatever, and it's a minor reveal halfway through that he was elected to the position and is serving out a ten-year term! It's actually a really wonderful book.

[thirdblindmouse]

I haven't gotten far enough into the books to see any overthrow actually happen, but I believe republican revolt against monarchy/aristocracy is part of Charles Stross's Merchant Princes series (twice over, probably), as part of his Feelings About Fantasy Tropes. (Mind you, I think he's kind of obnoxious in his Feelings About Fantasy Tropes, but I agree with him about the weird idealization of monarchy, and I approve of his Sensible AU Travel.)

[sdelmonte]

1. LJ has this post three times. Silly LJ.

2. While The Dresden Files has the usual fairy courts and a fairly undemocratic white council of wizards who get the job due to seniority, at least that council is open to people besides white men and it seems to have some degree of meritocracy. In addition, some wizards have formed a secret grey council that might very well overthrow the white council since the white council is problematic. By and large, though, Harry Dresden just snarks about the white council.

3. Mike Carey's Felix Castor novels have absolutely no ruling bodies at all. Felix deals with the usual authority figures like the cops, big business, big science, etc. But the books are happily devoid of any fairy courts or secret orders of monster hunters.

[kd7sov]

Mistborn. (No, it doesn't actually have everything. Just most things.)

Book One is primarily concerned with the planning and execution of a rebellion against the Lord Ruler, who's ruled for a thousand years because he's the Sliver of Infinity, a piece of god. (This is true, but not in the way he or his church implies.) Book Three involves attempts to destroy the god of destruction (not, worth noting, of evil; just destruction, or more precisely Ruin).

The political structure in Alloy of Law, the sequel, isn't explored much, beyond that there are lords and something along the lines of popularly-elected senators. (Specifically, someone won one with a platform that boiled down to "I can do copper magic, so I'm immune to magical emotion manipulation.")

Warbreaker also involves rebellion against a God-King, but it isn't done by the protagonists and isn't successful.

[skygiants]

That's a start! I'm curious if they really concern themselves with governing structures at all other than "it's the United States!" Is there, like, a Magic Council or something?

[oyceter]

I'm pretty sure by the end of the book, most of the other kingdoms (or a great deal of them, lead in part by Darre) are in revolt against the Arameri and basically make Shahar accept a more council-like rule, so possibly that counts?

[skygiants]

Oh, I haven't read Cold Steel yet either, but it's true Kate Elliott is at least playing with some different systems of fantasy government beyond KINGS ARE GREAT. But mostly what I remember is AU Napoleon, who isn't a king ... but is also not about to usher in a democracy, either.

[laceblade]

They do have Camjiata, but in the beginning at least, he & others are talking about why cold mages have power in Europa, & how to upset that entire system. I'll see what happens, but I'm hoping for something really cool!

[skygiants]

Organized crime is I think a legitimately different kind of system of government than royalty!

...unless there is a KINGPIN, wacka-wacka ba-dum bing.

I don't thiiiink there were any kings in the Mortal Engines, actually, you're right! Weren't the cities run by councils or something and then, like, a set of revolutionary bio-anarchists? I keep wanting to call them the Green Party but I don't think that's actually accurate. You are also correct that Mortal Engines is also more steampunkish sff than fantasy though ....

[skygiants]

I don't understand why there aren't more books that are the equivalent of "French Revolution WITH DRAGONS!"

[skygiants]

No monarchies in Young Wizards! Actually, in another panel, there was discussion of urban fantasy (adult) vs. suburban fantasy (YA, Kids From Our World get in wacky magical hijinks), and I think that both Young Wizards and Harry Potter, which someone brought up below, would sort of fall under that. Maybe suburban fantasy doesn't have to be monarchical!

I never read Artemis Fowl, but the fact that the fairies have a representative government is actually pretty cool.

[skygiants]

It's true they haven't yet successfully gotten to the point of overthrowing the military rule, but the trajectory (at least as per Hawkeye and Mustang) is towards representative government rather than a return to the status quo, and that's presented as a desirable thing and what our heroes are working towards long-term, so I would count it. Also, I mean, at least they've have managed to overthrow the Homunculusocracy, which is a start! And their Fuhrer is not specifically named "King" anymore...

I think "this structure is abusive! ... so we'll replace the BAD leader with a GOOD leader and then it will be fine!" tends to be the drive of a lot of fantasy with revolutions in, honestly.

Ha, yeah, I haven't read The Kingdom of the Gods yet, and I was trying to remember if the end of The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms could count -- I think that may be the only fantasy novel out there which features "oppressed gods rebel against humans!"

[skygiants]

I want to see more fantasy that examines the state of the government! Right now I will keep holding the Westmark books close to my heart.

[rachelmanija]

Urban fantasy: Holly Black's White Cat and The Coldest Girl in Coldtown. In both, magic (or vampires) exist and are publicly known, but they're set in modern-day America which is as democratic as it is currently, anyway.

I feel like I've read a lot of werewolf/vampire urban fantasy and paranormal romance where America is much as it is now politically and the werewolves/vampires don't have kings or centralized government, but of course now I can't think of specific books. If there's any kings or queens in Marjorie Liu's books, I don't remember them at all. (I think one book has an evil mermaid queen, but she might just be a powerful witch.)