skygiants | (no subject)

Recently I keep having conversations with people that go like this:

me: allow me to show off to you how much I know about the Roman Empire
interlocutor: yes good job you've named four emperors, congratulations
me: it's because I just recently read this book on murder in ancient Rome! the book was very interesting and asked thoughtful questions and contained a lot of useful information thoughtfully presented --
interlocutor: sounds great!
me: BUT, also, unfortunately, it's written entirely in BUCKLE UP TWITTER style --
interlocutor: ah.
me: but the information IS really good, I just wish the book would stop apologizing to me for giving it to me! I'M READING THIS BOOK BECAUSE I WANT INFORMATION! PLEASE STOP ASSUMING THAT I'M BORED BY THE INFORMATION I PICKED UP THE BOOK FOR!!!
interlocutor: I see this book left an impression.
me: yes. sorry. would you like another factoid about the Roman Empire.

The book is called A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (as many of you already know as I have seen many of you already post about this book in more or less exactly these terms, and of course you were all right.) It's a detailed, thorough examination that begins by asking the question of what kinds of killings actually count as murder, and whether you can call something a murder if it's only considered as damage to an individual rather than a crime against the state for which retribution is enacted by a state, which in many cases ancient Rome didn't -- which is an angle I would never have thought to consider and provides a really good lens for through which to examine Roman society as a whole. The author works her way down from the big famous Imperial murders through patricides, matricides and street crime down to the perfectly-socially-acceptable-in-Rome deaths of gladiators and slaves with specific examples and useful analysis and I really enjoyed reading it, except when I hit a phrase like this and wanted to throw the book across the room:

Before we get there we need to see how murder became so central to Roman politics, and I'm sorry but it involves a lot of politics and chat about land reform policies, and it's awful. We can get through this together; I believe in us.

STOP! STOP THAT!! JUST TELL ME ABOUT THE LAND REFORM! I PROMISE YOU I TRULY WANT TO KNOW!

Threaded | Flat

From:

seekingferret

*Cracking up at the thought that anyone would ever think you didn't want to know about Roman land reform policies.*

From:

happydork

But. You're reading the history book. To find out. About the history.

I'm so confused. It's as if fanfic stopped in the middle to be like, before we get to the kissing I'm sorry but we've got to have some mutual pining while sharing a bed, I know, I hate it too, no one is here for this, but we can get through it together.

From:

bookblather

I do kind of enjoy that style, personally- I like the chattiness. It feels like I'm sitting with a friend in a bar and they're going off about a topic I want to learn about. But I can absolutely see where it would get Very Annoying Very Fast.

I super agree about the way that she reframes Roman society, though. I was just listening to a history of ancient Rome in the car and it's... very different in its framing, mostly very "ancient Rome was purely a hierarchical state" without any consideration of how that might have affected the lives of anyone not wealthy men... drove me a bit mad in the "Women" section particularly, where the author was like "well LEGALLY women had to have a male guardian at all times BUT ACTUALLY it was totally fine because this wasn't rigorously enforced" and... my dude... it was enforced...

Augh, sorry, that turned into a totally different rant. I enjoyed this book a lot! I can see where it would get frustrating and I am sorry you had that experience.

From:

sophia_sol

That is so aggravating, I much prefer when the author of a book with lots of details is super excited to give them to you and assumes you'll find it fascinating too. Like...you wrote this book, presumably because you find these things interesting, so why not assume you can carry your reader into enthusiasm with you!

From:

chestnut_pod

Why even read this book if you are not absolutely balls-to-the-wall about land reform??? Like a NORMAL person, god.

From:

sovay

STOP! STOP THAT!! JUST TELL ME ABOUT THE LAND REFORM! I PROMISE YOU I TRULY WANT TO KNOW!

. . . Do you want recommendations or has the book got them in the bibliography?

From:

starlady

As a trained historian with training in a few fields, including ancient Rome: it's always land reform. So crucial, so boring, so unappreciated.

I will say this though, this book has a great cover.

From:

rmc28

GIVE ME THE POLITICS AND THE LAND REFORM!

Which us to say, while this book sounds fascinating I will clearly have to wait until I'm in a mellow and forgiving mood to read it.

From:

st_aurafina

This sounds so good!

...she co-hosts a history podcast with writer Janina Matthewson called History is Sexy

*SMASHES SUBSCRIBE BUTTON*

From:

vass

OMG, THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING. I had never heard of this book, but I follow Sarah Taber on Twitter, so the land reform policy is exactly what I WOULD want to know, yes, show me the money!, and I don't like when people assume I-the-reader can't be interested in something "dry". (I mean, I'm the one who failed accounting three times and am still yelling about how important it is that accounting is an account, it's a way of presenting a narrative, just because there are numbers doesn't mean it isn't telling a story, also did you know about Leonardo's boyfriend?)

From:

raven

ahhhh I thought I was the only person who hated that sort of thing, I have the actual phrase “buckle up” muted.

From:

osprey_archer

Never have I read a book simultaneously SO FASCINATING and yet SO INFURIATING in its insistence on apologizing whenever things got good. OH MY GOD, this is not a middle school cafeteria, I PROMISE I will not dump my mac and cheese over your head when you go on too long about the Gracchi. PLEASE go on about the Gracchi. There IS no such thing as going on too long about them.

I found the contextualization about Roman society good enough that I went on to read Southon's earlier book Agrippina, and it's much better about letting its geek flag fly without apologizing for it all over the place. I especially loved the way that it delved into the unreliability of all the available sources: they were all written decades if not centuries after the fact, the authors had their own emperors they needed to suck up to, ancient Romans believed devoutly in the statement "well-behaved women rarely make history" and they did NOT mean it as a compliment to the rare woman who did, etc etc.

From:

brownbetty

It's not like you're reading a book about air-conditioning repair, which you might be doing out of something besides unmotivated interest!

From:

lirazel

This is so interesting--I feel like the book I'm currently reading (Forget the Alamo) is doing a similar thing and it irritates me as well. While I hate the "buckle up tumblr" stuff (which is where I experience it, seeing as I do not do Twitter), I would have thought that a conversational-style history book would at least be an interesting thing to read. But alas. I just don't like it at all. I guess other people do, though? It's certainly got very good ratings. And I think the actual research of the book is good; I just wish it were in a different style.

Before we get there we need to see how murder became so central to Roman politics, and I'm sorry but it involves a lot of politics and chat about land reform policies, and it's awful. We can get through this together; I believe in us

GROSS I HATE THIS.

From:

lannamichaels

That sounds like a topic I would like, but a book I would throw across a room.

From:

copperfyre

But but but - surely if you’re reading a book about Roman history you’re at least vaguely interested in, uh, Roman history?!? This sounds fascinating content wise but aggravating in execution, but I think the former outweighs the latter for me so I shall see if I can get hold of it! Thanks for the rec! (And the warning re: tone!)

Currently I’m listening to a podcast about the history of the Byzantine Empire and truly I am learning that the root of everything is actually land policies and reform.

From:

evelyn_b

Ha, exactly. I don't necessarily always mind the BUCKLE UP style as such, but. . .for heaven's sake, we're all nerds here; I promise you that I, the reader who deliberately bought a book about ancient Romans of my own free will, will not judge you for caring to much about land reform.

From:

lizbee

But if you're reading ANYTHING about Roman history, a baseline level of interest in land reform is assumed! (My interest was sub-baseline, which is why I did not do grad school.) THAT'S HOW ROME WORKS! MURDER AND LAND REFORM! NOT ALWAYS IN THAT ORDER!