(no subject)

[skygiants]

After I read Mirror Dance, batyatoon and I had a conversation in which I argued that no one should ever date Miles Vorkosigan, because he is kind of a TERRIBLE BOYFRIEND. Batya defended him valiantly and with many good arguments, but I was unconvinced!

I was still thinking about this for the first thirty or forty pages of Memory, during which I sort of wanted to smack Miles in the head ("MILES STOP BEING A JERK TO QUINN AUGH I TOLD YOU SO"). And then Miles got back to Barrayar and I forgot to be grumpy about that because all of a sudden Memory got AMAZING. I completely understand why everyone likes this one (along with Civil Campaign) best now! Themes about self-reinvention and rebuilding your life when everything seems to have fallen apart and changing Barrayaran culture, along with some detective work and a healthy dose of slapstick; it's all the things that Bujold does best and I enjoyed it enormously.

(It was nice to get a focus on the Barrayaran characters, too, who tend to be my favorites. Lady Alys! Gregor! Galeni, who is not technically Barrayaran but I am counting him anyway! Lots and lots of Ivan! \o/)


Also, Illyan/Alys is maybe the most adorable thing ever . . . okay, possibly it is beaten out by the adorable of Illyan DISCOVERING MAPS AND PALM PILOTS. Illyan has shot up to way near the top of my favorite characters list after this book.

It was pretty easy to predict that the culprit was Haroche from his first introduction - I mean, he is basically the only major player in this book that we don't already know and like; the field of potential suspects is not huge, here - but I don't mind that too much, since the mystery is only a small part of the point of the book anyway. The only complaint I really have is how completely amazed everyone is that Miles did not sell out Galeni's career for the Naismith bribe - it does not really speak all that highly of their opinion of him! Guys, choosing not to destroy your friend's life is not an amazing example of strength of character, it is basic human decency. I get that Naismith was an enormous temptation, but you are really not doing Miles any favors by being so boggled that he didn't take Haroche up on it.

I'm still firmly convinced Miles is a terrible boyfriend, though. Actually, Batya and I had a great deal of difficulty coming up with any people in the Vorkosiganverse that we would actually want to date. A half hour of brainstorming or so gave us this very short list:

Cordelia Naismith
Ky Tung
Duv Galen (crossed out because I suggested him initially, but I am not sure he is still on my list after a demonstration of just how terrible he is at the dating thing in this book.)

Bel Thorne would be on there, except no one in their right mind would ever want to be the rebound girl/guy for someone who had previously been head-over-heels for Miles Vorkosigan. I admit I would date Ivan, but only in a Koudelka way, by which I mean: platonically, and largely for the joy of rejecting him when he eventually panicked and proposed. >.> It would be funny!

Other Vorkosigan readers, you should weigh in! Whose sterling qualities are we overlooking?

Comments

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

The only complaint I really have is how completely amazed everyone is that Miles did not sell out Galeni's career for the Naismith bribe - it does not really speak all that highly of their opinion of him!

It's not about the decency issue. It's...Miles was just handed everything he ever wanted, everything he's been fighting for, everything he's practically killed himself for multiple times, on a silver platter. Everybody around him has seen him do the impossible--do way, way, way beyond the impossible--for this. And here it is. And no one would know. And he wouldn't even have to do anything, just...not do something. Not stick his neck out for a Komarran, the son of a murderer and terrorist, the man who had called him a thief and a little shit, &c. Were they even really friends? Ambiguous acquaintances, perhaps. And then, there's that he was willing to lie to Illyan for this exactly.

Memory is the biggest Wham Episode in the series. There's a reason it hasn't been compiled into an omnibus. It's appropriately kept standalone.

[skygiants]

Of course he's done the impossible and risked himself over and over again. But - well, my standards for Miles as a protagonist are higher than that; all the indication from previous books is that the standards of the people around him, as far as human ethics go, are pretty high too. I understand how much of a struggle it was, but I was in no doubt that he wasn't going to do it, and my bet would be that most readers felt the same. I'd hope that the people who expect the most from him in everything else also expect the most from him in terms of not betraying someone who trusts in him for personal gain - no matter how epic the gain, you know?

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

But...nobody's seen that. We are privy to Miles's thoughts, and of course his mother's influence. But to everybody else, he goes to ridiculous lengths for his goals...and that's it. With a carve-out for family, which is at least in part because of perceived duty.

[rahkan.livejournal.com]

Umm, not to mention that Miles is hideously unattractive...which I think would make him alot less charming in actual life.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Remember, even in A Civil Campaign, it's "Miles the monomaniacal," "demonstrably, even sniper fire can't stop the little git."

And that's his friends and family.

[skygiants]

I don't know - I mean, we're not talking about the people who see only Admiral Naismith here. From them, I'll grant you it's a reasonable assumption. But this is Illyan and Ivan and Gregor we're talking about, the people who saw Miles grow up, have read the details of most of his missions - including the embarrassing ones - and, in some cases, have been along for some of his more spectacularly altruistic decisions. Not to mention the whole Mark thing in Brothers in Arms, which I think should be a signifier of how far he is willing to go for other people who are not just nothing to him but actively a liability. And admittedly Mark falls under that 'family' heading, but in a way that most Barrayarans wouldn't recognize or take into account either. If anyone knows him better than that, I feel like these are the people that should.

[skygiants]

Monomaniacal isn't at all the same thing as 'completely untrustworthy', though. Miles is TOTALLY monomaniacal and often kind of a jerk! I would never argue with this. But that doesn't mean they think he's devoid of morals.

[ceitfianna]

I'd date Ivan, he'd be wonderful fun. Mark does a better job of being a boyfriend than Miles does so I'd add him to the list. Also Pym and any of the Kosti boys.

[skygiants]

See, I'm perfectly willing to buy that Miles' charisma overcomes a lot of other factors, because he is demonstrably a super-charismatic guy. And probably a lot of fun to go to dinner with! But then you get to the whole thing where he is constantly keeping One Eye Out for the Next Lady Vorkosigan, and has kind of a mercenary harem who are all totally in love with him, and it's just downhill from there, man.

[skygiants]

Awww, the Kosti boys are kind of adorable, it's true. Okay, they can go on the list! (And their mom's cooking is definitely a bonus there, too. >.>)

I would never ever ever in a million years date Mark, though. @_@ OH MY GOD SO MANY ISSUES.

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

Bel Thorne would make a great hermfriend, as soon as it got over Miles.

Further datable characters (although I have to admit that I'm finding them in the end of the series you haven't reread yet):

Kareen Koudelka: cheery, personable, kind, generous, interested in the unusual. Her sisters aren't described in as much detail, but they're all good catches too.

Dono Vorrutyer: Intelligent, funny, attractive and on his way to becoming a major power broker. Also, the genderf*$% is hot. See above re: Bel Thorne.

Gregor Vorbarra: Also intelligent, powerful, interesting and attractive... if it weren't for the job his spouse would have to take on. Date him secretly and then break up before the wedding.

[ceitfianna]

I'd rather date Miles or Ivan but you have to give Mark points for trying.

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

But this is still the man who nearly kills that poor courier in an epileptic seizure. That incident is directly caused by Miles's irresponsible and inexcusable lies to his commanding officers AND to the army which depends on him. Miles could have gotten the Dendarii, whom he loves personally and as a group, into really deep disasters because he is unwilling to give up his position with them. Gregor, Illyan, Ivan and Galeni -- and Haroche! -- all know about this incident. Sacrificing Galeni could be an extension of Miles's former (and very grave) mistake.

[skygiants]

I was considering adding the Koudelka girls! They all seem like great people to hang out with, but potentially intimidating to date. I have to see what I make of Kareen when I get around to rereading Civil Campaign.

OH MAN I REMEMBER DONO VORRUTYER THOUGH and from my vague memories: totally hot, absolutely on the list.

Gregor was considered for the list and then rejected precisely because nobody in their right mind would want to be Empress of Barrayar. *laughing*

[rahkan.livejournal.com]

It'd be way aggravating just to have to _deal_ with him day after day. I mean, everything has to be a performance with him, and you're like, "Can we please just eat dinner?" And those are the aggravating moments when being hideously unattractive would probably just seem like the final straw. At least when attractive people are aggravating, they're you know...still contributing value to the day.

I think Ivan would be way more fun. Or Gregor. I see no reason why Gregor cannot be on your list.

[skygiants]

Some points for effort, yes! Still: nooooot enough points, not after all the stuff that we learn about his psyche in Mirror Dance. (Not to mention the incident with the clone.) Maybe after, like, fifty years of therapy.

[ceitfianna]

Oh yes and I want to agree with Rym and add Gregor to the list. He's wonderful but the Emperor thing is kind of a lot.

[skygiants]

To me, it reads as a much bigger moral event horizon to cross. I mean - well. I can understand it better if they are amazed that Miles saw through Haroche's lies, given that bribe, because it would make perfect sense for Miles to keep telling himself exactly what he wants to believe. But knowing that Miles saw it as a bribe, knowing that he had figured Haroche was guilty - which is another aspect of the crime, letting the criminal who almost killed Illyan stay in power - and believing that he would take it up anyways? I see that as a very different magnitude of moral compromise.

[foreverdirt.livejournal.com]

I came perilously close to stopping reading Memory about thirty pages in, because I can't stand the sort of plot it looked like it was going to take (the hot air balloon plot, where someone lies, and then has to keep lying to maintain the first lie, and at every stage you just wish they'd stop lying one stage before, because then it would have been manageable, but now it isn't...), and then suddenly it went from that to becoming my favourite of the Vorkosigan books, and one of my favourite books ever.

I think for me, the thing about Miles' choice is that I read him as suffering from a pretty severe depressive episode during the book, and so what would be basic human decency if he were thinking straight is the far harder struggle to break out from the solipsism of depression* and process the consequences of his actions.

Illyan DISCOVERING MAPS AND PALM PILOTS

YES!

My single favourite line in the book -- and one of my favourite lines of all time -- is when Illyan's chip is malfunctioning and his loved ones are taking shifts by his bedside, and as Miles leaves, he hears Illyan say, "Ivan, you idiot, what are you doing here?"

*ObDisclaimer: Not everyone experiences depression like this. I don't experience depression like this. But the way I read Miles, he does.

[skygiants]

That is the other reason Miles would be a terrible boyfriend, it's true! He is an EPIC DRAMA KING.

See, I just want to hang out with Ivan! And laugh at him a lot. Gregor, on the other hand, is totally hot but is not on my list because I could not in any way cope with the Barrayaran politics surrounding the act of dating Gregor. He can be on your list, if you're braver than me. *generous*

[skygiants]

That is the only thing stopping me from adding Gregor!

- well, that and Lady Alys, whom I love but who would be utterly terrifying to deal with on a daily basis.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

As to dating, speaking as a male Kinsey 0, here's who I'd be interested in:

Delia Koudelka. Not the others--Kareen has a bit of an inferiority complex going, Martya's just too acerbic, and Olivia doesn't really have a personality for too long--and by the time she does it's wrapped up in the Dono plot, so.

Delia, of course, takes after her mother, so throw Drou circa Barrayar on the list.

Cordelia and Alys...hm. Early on, perhaps. By the time Miles is grown, both are just a bit too terrifying. (It's also the age difference, by then.)

Probably Laisa. I never have as good a sense of what she looks like, though.

Not, I have to admit, Ekaterin. Much as it works for Miles...no. Maybe it's what Aral said about Miles, that at least Miles met her when he knew who he was. Both people still finding themselves do not a stable relationship make. And I'm still questing, so.

Elli, I really don't know. I mean, she's so stuck on Miles.

And I don't think I'd be able to handle Bel, even in feminine mode, or a quaddie like Nicol.

Taura...I don't know. Put me in Roic's position circa "Winterfair Gifts," I think I might do what he did. Miles's position in "Labyrinth," not so sure.

[skygiants]

Oh man yes, that was exactly it for me! There are the first few pages where Miles lies himself deeper and deeper, and occasionally thinks about telling the truth and then decides not to again, and it's like "OH NO MILES PLEASE JUST NIP THIS IN THE BUD" - and then it takes a left turn into somewhere completely different and unexpected and essentially amazing. I really, really love the way Illyan's reinvention of himself is paralleled with Miles; it's one of my favorite things about the book, how it forces Miles to look outside himself.

- hmm. Okay, that is fair, and the best argument I've heard so far. And it's true that everyone else around him seems to have a very good grasp of Miles' psyche in that sense, and to realize what he's going through with that (which is why I don't quite buy the argument that other characters are in doubt about Miles' moral character; even Ivan has figured out everything else about the inside of his head!)

OH MAN YES. <3333 I loved that moment so enormously much. Ivan: helping the ill by allowing them to be amiably exasperated at him!

[(Anonymous)]

Are you kidding? "Oh wait, if this works out, I can be the consort of an enlightened monarch." All the pomp and ceremony, none of the chance of a Henry VIII style beheading, and no actual governmental responsibilities.

Really the only downside is the chance of being assassinated. But, I mean, the increased chance of political violence has to be counteracted by the complete absence of random street violence. Actually, I wonder what the rate of violent death actually is for consorts? I bet it's way safer than it is being a member of the population at large.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

I need to play you some of the Vorkosigan filk if I haven't already. "Ivan, You Idiot" is an entire song. (And for this book in particular, "Two Falls out of Three." Plus, the "Butterbug Blues" on principle.)