skygiants: a figure in white and a figure in red stand in a courtyard in front of a looming cathedral (cour des miracles)
[personal profile] skygiants
John R. Bowen's Why the French Don't Like Headscarves was another recommendation from [livejournal.com profile] schiarire. In 2004, a law passed in France that made it illegal to wear "conspicuous religious symbols" in public schools, which to me at the time (and to many not-me people, I would think . . .) seemed sort of crazy for a number of reasons, considering that it means kids can be expelled for wearing, among other things: yarmulkes, large crosses, Sikh turbans, and, of course, the Islamic headscarf or 'la voile'. The book basically undertakes to explain the origins of the law and the attitude towards headscarves and how the law came to be passed.

The law seems no less crazy to me now, really, but I think I at least theoretically understand the underpinnings of it better? The part that seems most obviously crazy is the fact that the main justification for the law was to make sure young women were not being forced by The Islamic Patriarchy to wear headscarves - obviously crazy because many of the girls involved in Dramatic Headscarf Cases were not in fact from super-religious families (two of them, the Levy girls, had a Jewish atheist for a father), and had clearly decided to start wearing the scarves as symbols of their own identity and independence. I mean, the subtext there, which Bowen lays out, is obviously that the idea of young French people finding strength in Islamic identity is frightening to many more mainstream French people, with racism and Islamophobia very much tied into that. Not to mention the fact that many North African feminists from Islamic countries were coming to France and actively speaking out against the voile - and their experiences are obviously very important to listen to, and not to discount - but at the same time, no one was actually listening to the girls in question or taking their viewpoint into account, and that can't ever be a good thing in a debate like this even without the basic problem that, hey, it just got a lot easier to kick immigrant girls from Islamic neighborhoods out of school, awesome.

But at least I can see and understand the reasoning and cause and effect there, even though I don't like a lot of it. The other point, that was much harder for me to grasp on an emotional/intuitive level, is this concept that seeing someone else's religious symbol can be considered an intrusion into 'public space' and a threat to freedom of religion. Bowen points out that people described seeing women walking around in headscarves as an offense to them, an offense to the idea of France as a secular country, and on an intuitive level that sort of boggles me, becaus what someone chooses to wear or feels necessary to wear for religious beliefs is about their choices, not about the observer! To me that seems self-evident. But the history of France regarding religion, and the attitude towards religion there, is very different than it is here, and Bowen does a very good job of explaining that and making that difference clear.

I'm sorry, guys, I feel like this is a very rambly and not super-coherent review. Anyway, the book made me think a lot about my own assumptions about what freedom of religion means, and . . . I still don't think my assumptions are wrong, but thinking about them isn't a bad thing regardless.

Date: 2010-04-15 02:07 am (UTC)
vivien: picture of me drunk and giggling (pie)
From: [personal profile] vivien
Very interesting. I have read about the bans of the veil and basically thought "bzuh?" since it is a pretty strange concept for me to get my head around. Especially since Europe is supposed to be the cool, liberal place! Although a friend who lives in the Netherlands (and is married to a citizen of Muslim descent) assures me that Europe is way more complex than one would assume.

Having grown up in the Bible Belt, I am adamant in my position to have a separation of church and state, but I am also adamant about people having freedom of religion. Those two positions can sometimes conflict, but on the whole, if it's on your person or on your property, go for it.

Working at my former Head Start, which is federally funded and has some pretty strict guidelines to ensure inclusiveness, we didn't celebrate holidays. Except Valentine's Day, but it was called Friendship Day. This worked very well, since we had Muslim and Hindu families. The use of pork in meals was not an issue; it was eliminated as easily as you eliminate peanut butter from centers where kids have severe allergies. It doesn't take a lot to be inclusive or respectful.

Okay, this was rambly, too. Please forgive! It's a very interesting topic, and I am glad you chose this book to talk about.

Date: 2010-04-15 02:17 am (UTC)
batyatoon: (the world is quiet here)
From: [personal profile] batyatoon
I am adamant in my position to have a separation of church and state, but I am also adamant about people having freedom of religion. Those two positions can sometimes conflict

...wait, how do those conflict? *bewildered*

Date: 2010-04-15 02:22 am (UTC)
vivien: picture of me drunk and giggling (Default)
From: [personal profile] vivien
Usually when someone is being a little over-zealous about expressing their personal beliefs. In my personal experience, it is when Bible Belt Christian types go overboard with workplace displays of faith and the like. "It's my personal belief to express that Jesus is my lord and savior on all the items on my desk at my job in the elementary school" - that kind of thing.

Date: 2010-04-15 02:36 am (UTC)
batyatoon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] batyatoon
Oh, like that. I see. If it's a conflict, it strikes me as simple enough to resolve: your freedom of religion ends where it touches anything state-funded.

Possibly I have a blind spot here, given that separation of church and state is generally what allows me most of my freedom of religion.

Date: 2010-04-15 02:42 am (UTC)
vivien: picture of me drunk and giggling (pie)
From: [personal profile] vivien
Heh, one would think it would be simple. Then again, one would think that prayers around the school flagpole wouldn't be okay either, and yet, every year there is a National Prayer Morning at schools around said flagpoles every year in the name of "freedom of religion". *eyerolls* Oh, whoops, my cynicism is showing.

Date: 2010-04-15 03:58 am (UTC)
vivien: picture of me drunk and giggling (Default)
From: [personal profile] vivien
Oh, we had the legal holidays and a two week winter break. They just weren't couched in holiday language. We did have Martin Luther King Jr. Day off and we talked about it, but the others just didn't blip on the radar. So no making bunny or egg art at Easter, no jack o' lanterns at Halloween, no turkeys at Thanksgiving - that kind of thing. I was saaaad at first, esp. for no Halloween, but man, did it make a difference in behavior and the tenor of the classroom. It was much calmer as a result.

Date: 2010-04-15 05:22 am (UTC)
aberration: NASA Webb image of the Carina nebula (too much confusion here)
From: [personal profile] aberration
It always really stuns people when I say this, but I've never been... more comfortable and glad to be an American than when taking comparative immigration law. Europe is cool and liberal about a lot of things, but race and immigration aren't among them, at least in my opinion. (That's not dumping on this issue in particular, but generally I... find the way some European countries have dealt with these issues to be far more repugnant to my social and political conscience than has been the case in the U.S. - and I know that's saying something.)

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