(no subject)

[skygiants]

I think rymenhild first recommended me A Canticle for Leibowitz six or seven years ago, which just goes to show you what an awesomely timely person I am. But I'm glad I read it when I did, because man, guys, it is such an archival book, I feel like I can appreciate it ten times better now I'm in archives school.

So A Canticle for Leibowitz is one of those grim sixties sci-fi novels about the nuclear apocalypse and how mankind continually shoots itself in the foot, or, more commonly, in the head. It is super, super sixties. Everyone is white. There are 2.5 female characters, and one is a reporter who is identified (after First Reporter, Second Reporter, etc.) as Lady Reporter, and the other is a mutant tomato-seller with two heads. (The .5 is head number two.) However, it is also really good!

The first section is sort of medievalish and involves a young monk finding the remnants of a fallout shelter which includes relics of candidate-for-sainthood Leibowitz, whose notable deeds involve preserving a bunch of books and blueprints and so forth in the post-apocalyptic chaos and promptly being martyred. But what is actually important in this first story (if you are an archivist) is the lengthy discussion of how the monks do their best to accurately preserve the blueprints and records, even though they can't really make heads or tails of them . . . and then after having preserved the originals they create an illuminated copy. OH BLESS.

The second section is vaguely Renaissanceish and is about the rediscovery of electricity, sort of, but what it is actually about (if you are an archivist) is the eternal question of ACCESS vs. PRESERVATION and whether Secular Renaissance Genius has the right to complain about the monks holding on to all these important archival materials and keeping them in their tiny out-of-the-way monastery.

Then the third section is about the end of the world again but it's also about how hope is basically starting an archive on Mars, so you I think get my drift here. ARCHIVES ARCHIVES ARCHIVES.

ANYWAY. The other reason I read this book right now is for a paper that I am going to be writing this semester for one of my classes . . . and for that I need your guys' help! I want to write about the fetishization of the archive in post-apocalyptic sci-fi -- you guys know the kind of thing I mean, civilization is destroyed or reset or whatever but now we have the LOST ARCHIVE OF THE ANCIENTS, where the account of pre-apocalyptic history and technology still exist in remarkably good condition, all things considered. Or, alternately, civilization is being destroyed as we speak but IF WE SAVE THE ARCHIVE we can create hope for a better future someday. Like that!

So if you can think of any post-apocalyptic books or movies that feature ARCHIVES (or MUSEUMS or LIBRARIES), please do rec them to me! They do not actually have to be good and can in fact be actively terrible as long as they fit this criteria. Special bonus points if the archive actually features audiovisual material, although I do not think there will actually be many of these, especially not in works from the sixties when they were still learning about videotape.

Comments

[agonistes]

This is the immediate and obvious answer, but: BSG.

[skygiants]

It is not actually that obvious to me! :O Are there any actual archival records in BSG, or is there just Cylon memory? (Does Cylon memory count as an audiovisual media? I guess it's digitally preserved . . .)

[newredshoes]

THE SHARKS WERE HUNGRY THAT YEAR.

Oh man, it's been too long since I read that sucker.

Does it have to be post-apocalyptic? Because the first thing that's coming to mind for me is ATLA. But I will keep thinking!

[skygiants]

IT'S A GREAT BOOK FOR SHARKS. And for corbies. Although I guess they too are subject to DESTRUCTION BY FALLOUT.

It has to be post-apocalyptic because if I broadened it out enough to include stuff like ATLA then I would not be able to keep this paper to 15 pages. *laughing* OTHERWISE, YES.

[scifantasy]

I've always liked Canticle. My favorite part, of course, is Saint Edward Isaac Leibowitz with a shopping list of bagels and kraut. Well, if Jesus was Jewish...*smirk*

As to your question: There's a later episode of Babylon 5 that contains a huge riff on Canticle (Straczynski basically said that as he was writing it he said "crap, it's too much like Canticle, aw, screw it"), and of course the short-lived spinoff Crusade was archaeological sci-fi. Won't say more until you're done, which reminds me, DVDs? *grin*

The Assassin's Creed series is a lot of that too, complete with "First Civilization" archives/temples (yes, they were the Greek gods, long story).

What about Foundation, which is sort of similar?

[skygiants]

Hah, the ONE THING I remembered from when Rym told me about the book so long ago is that LEIBOWITZ WAS JEWISH, so I ended up being surprised by how little Judaism there was in the whole thing!

Also: you wouldn't happen to remember what season that episode is in, would you? And whether it would spoil me like crazy to watch it out of order? *laughing*

I read Foundation so long ago that I don't super remember it, but I know it is similar, and I should probably reread it as a part of this.

[bookblather]

That effing book I read that effing book like a week ago and promptly had nightmares about nuclear warfare. THAT EFFING BOOK. Sadly I'm not too into post-apocalyptic sci-fi, so I can't help too much with the question, except to maybe suggest looking into Andre Norton? I can't imagine she wouldn't have something like an archive, with all she does with Old Ones.

[skygiants]

It's okay! We may all blow each other up again and again and again and again but THE ARCHIVE will survive.

. . . at least we don't live in the sixties anymore? Um.

Andre Norton is a good rec, though, thank you!

[gramarye1971]

The moment anyone mentions 'post-apocalyptic' and 'libraries' in the same context, my thoughts immediately go to (1) Fahrenheit 451 and the bombing survivors who have memorised books and are acting as walking libraries, and (2) the Twilight Zone episode 'Time Enough at Last', which is one of my personal nightmare tropes.

[skygiants]

I'm trying to figure out if I should include Fahrenheit 451! I sort of feel like "book-burning dystopia" is a slightly different genre than "all the books got destroyed in the apocalypse, whoops" and it may be productive to separate them, because they're both pretty prolific. But on the other hand there is also SO MUCH overlap. So I don't know!

. . . . hahaha thank you for reminding me about that Twilight Zone episode, though, because MAN.

[ex_lionpyh573]

I don't know whether this counts as post-apocalyptic, but there's this (which I would like to say I am VERY PROUD OF MYSELF of being able to link to as I last read it when I was 8 and had forgotten completely until your asking this question lit up the extremely dusty synapse to retrieve it! It took me about ten minutes to find it by googling progressively less stupid variations of 'anne mccaffrey dragon genetic selection records hundreds of years ago it's a computer or something').

[skygiants]

I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT. Oh, Pern. (Oh, twelve-year-old self, who read way too many of those books way too often.) It's not exactly post-apocalyptic, but it follows many of the rules of the trope -- we had this info, we lost this info because of some kind of natural catastrophe, NOW WE HAVE RECOVERED IT THANKS TO THE ARCHIVE AND THE TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION MAY COMMENCE.

[ceitfianna]

Would The Time Machine count? I feel like when he goes into the future there's a museum somehow or I might be mixing it up with another movie like that. Your paper sounds fascinating.

[skygiants]

Hmmmm! I don't remember that in The Time Machine but I fully believe you that it's an aspect of at least one of the film versions. I'm going to have to investigate that. (And thank you!)

[rymenhild]

I really want to reread and write a defense of the underappreciated posthumous sequel, St Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman. Most readers of both hate Wild Horse Woman, but I think what it does is update the gender and religious historical politics of Canticle. There's a female heretical saint with stigmata! There is awareness that Catholicism tends to exist in tandem with popular folk religious practices! There is an Avignon antipapacy!

[skygiants]

Oh, I was hoping you would weigh in to provide your thoughts on Wild Horse Woman! I was intrigued by the description, but wary . . .?

Anyway, the point is I approve this project. DEFEND IT TO ME. (I like a lot of the religious stuff in Canticle, but it is definitely not as broad a view of Catholicism as it needs to be.)

[brooms]

hm. i don't think it's what you're after, but david of spielberg's AI sort of becomes an archive - http://youtu.be/HqqNOqEhC0s

[skygiants]

Oh, interesting! There's a lot of AIs-turned-archives in sci-fi actually -- it's like sff started from books, made a flying leap over film and video, and went straight to ROBOT ARCHIVES.

[hebethen]

Ooh, check out Jasper Fforde's Shades of Grey. I don't think an archive is the main focus -- the postapocalyptic dystopian government conspiracy thing is more the focus??? -- but said postapocalyptic dystopian government is built on an unholy reverence and bureaucratic discussion of some weirdo's extensively detailed and eccentric laws? Kind of archivey maybe?

OSC fits "actively terrible" but perhaps not in precisely that way. Ender saves the human race by watching archival vids from the first "apocalypse" and figuring out about the Hive Queen though?

Hum hum, scrolling through my years-out-of-date booklist... oh man, how about Alphabet of Thorn? No, wait, that's not postapocalyptic.

[hebethen]

Oh HEY I was browsing for animus to watch and came across Pale Cocoon, which from the looks of it even includes audio (if not audiovisual) archival material. Look: "Much of recorded history before the move has been forgotten, despite the numerous advances in technology. The last remaining information lies in a vast archive of data, much of it in corrupted formats. Determined to recover this precious information, the 'Archive Excavation Department' works specifically to restore as much of it as possible. Long ago, the Department used to be excited and full of energy. Now, people know that knowledge of the lost past can bring only sadness."

etc

[swankyfunk]

I read "A Canticle for Liebowitz" when I was in high school for this really awesome elective class about existential literature. After that I wanted to read more stories about the apocalypse and happened to discover "Good Omens" in the school library. Thus my geekness was further shaped.

Also, I've only read "Canticle" once since then (I kept the book I bought for that class!) but over the years I seem to have gotten the third section mixed up in my head with the story about the computer that could calculate the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything in "The Hitchhker's Guide to the Galaxy." I don't know why!

Unfortunately I can't think of other books or movies about SAVING ALL THE ARCHIVES off the top of my head, but I'll let you know if I come across something that might be useful.

[skygiants]

. . . wow, I can't imagine going from Leibowitz to Good Omens. I mean, sort of same apocalypse, I guess, but very different flavor . . .

There actually are very few computers in the third section! And maybe one of my favorite things about the book is that the one piece of helpful high-tech they have spends most of its time being broken while they try and fiddle with it and accidentally break it further. TECHNOLOGY: still prone to tripping over its own feet.

Thank you! :D

[cahn]

The books that immediately come to mind are Orson Scott Card's Memory of Earth series, where the giant AI is a repository of technological information that it is KEEPING SAFE for the DUMB VIOLENT HUMANS (after said dumb violent humans have been relocated to another planet and reset button pressed), but then it starts breaking down so now the humans have to get involved, and they have conversations like "Look, you're just a dumb computer, I need to know this information!" For extra special points, the humans have been raised to believe the AI is God. I loooove these books. I don't usually rec them to people because no one else likes that kind of thing, but given that you liked Canticle (which no one else I know likes either) you might like these too. However I don't remember if there is actual audiovisual material. Only the first 3 books are relevant, I think.

They are also a retelling of part of the Book of Mormon (another reason I love them, because retellings of religious documents where God = AI are AWESOME) which I guess doesn't really count as fantasy especially if you happen to be Mormon (which I am, nominally), but it does have quite an obsession with archives and providing written records; the entire thing is framed by the guy who says "I'm abridging all these records and sticking them in a hole in the ground!" and every so often you have someone showing up randomly with records someone else left lying about.

[skygiants]

I think I may have vague memories of having read these at some point in my Orson Scott Card phase when I was an adolescent . . . or maybe I just read the back covers a lot? Anyway, they sound familiar!

The archival framing sequence at least definitely does sound relevant. (hahahaha "I'm abridging all these records and sticking them in a hole in the ground!" IN A PROPER ARCHIVAL BOX SURROUNDED BY PLASTIC I HOPE.)

[jothra]

...there was a book I read ages ago, some sort of YA fantasy novel...at the end, it turned out that actually, it was post-apocalyptic. The wise old wizard and his apprentice ended the book by finding an old store of some kind that had not been totally destroyed, and referred to things like scissors as 'a cutting spell'. They were so excited about finding stuff. The ending blew my tiny little mind, but hell if I remember anything else about the book.

TO GOOGLE!

[skygiants]

WAIT WAIT

WAS EVERYONE IN THIS BOOK ANIMALS

because if so this is a book that I read as a kid!

. . . if not it may also be a book that I read as a kid, just one I don't remember as well.

[batyatoon]

... asldkjg;asdlg the libraries in the Inda books. HOW DID I FORGET THOSE.

OH WAIT

PROBABLY THE SAME WAY I FORGOT THAT I HAVE TO RETURN THOSE TO YOU.

[skygiants]

HAHAHAHAHA I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER WHICH COPIES OF THOSE YOU HAVE

(Did you actually finish, or do I still owe you the last one?

-- also you didn't lend me The Reluctant God!)

[jinian]

The Steerswoman is preservation and sharing as well as ongoing infogathering.

[kate_nepveu]

Yes, but more on the Pern side of things than post-apocalyptic proper, being a (SPOILERS, but the kind that probably entice rather than ruin, ROT-13) ybfg pbybal fgbel jurer gur zntvp vf npghnyyl grpuabybtl.

Similarly SG-1, which has some kind of data repository thing that literally reaches out, grabs people by the head and shoves ALL THE KNOWLEDGE into their brains, which is should-be fatal because people these days don't have big enough brains, is more a diminishing-world type thing (I think? My SG-1 is a bit hazy) than post-apocalypse. Still, you know, archive that

[lacewood]

Maggigan's Fantasia by Margeret Mahy. It's set in a post-apocalyptic universe, and I VERY VAGUELY recall that there is a library somewhere in it, though I don't think the library kickstarts the New Industrial Revolution. XD

[lacewood]

ARGH, TYPO, that should actually be MADDIGAN'S FANTASIA. What are you doing, self. :/

[holyschist]

It's not super-explicitly postapoc, but Pearl North's Libyrinth definitely fetishizes the hell out of archives, and the postapoc is at least implied, I think. It's fairly recent YA.

[skygiants]

Yes, I read it a week or two ago and haven't gotten around to writing it up yet. There is SO MUCH archive fetish! I would say the postapoc is definitely implied as well. (Although the funniest line in the book for me is the one where the protagonist talks about how fortunate they are that the ancestors -- who are presumably us -- wrote on super-strong paper and with super-stable ink. Not . . . so much . . .)

[ninjapenguin]

What about Book of Eli? I think that was both post-apocalypse and post-book burning dystopia.

Carol Berg's Flesh and Spirit involves a group of monks who believe the apocalypse is coming, and so are creating an archive.

[skygiants]

Book of Eli is so on my list! As soon as I came up with this idea I was like "all right, terrible Denzel Washington movie, GO GO GO."

Flesh and Spirit also sounds relevant, thank you!

[genarti]

In terms of terrible stuff, I have already recced you TOMES AND TALISMANS! I repeat it here for the record, and also in case anyone else got to watch that 80s-tastic educational series about the Dewey Decimal System framed as an apocalyptic archival ~crisis~.

[skygiants]

I still laugh and laugh at the existence of TOMES AND TALISMANS in general. Because SERIOUSLY, the eighties?! (Of course, the eighties. Of course.)