G-non-I-P

[skygiants]

I'm feeling oddly twitchy and want to post something here. I don't know why; I just feel like it. (Actually I do know why. It's because I'm supposed to be cleaning my room. Shhhh.) And there are some small things in my life I could post on, I guess, good and bad, but I'm too lazy to find the words to make them interesting/relevant, not to mention putting them into a format that I feel okay releasing to THE WORLD.*

*sidenote: I think I may start keeping a journal. Not because of any desire to keep things from THE WORLD, just because I think it would be nice to have some kind of written record of the way I feel when I feel it, for later, and also a place to put thoughts without having to make them interesting. Note that I have made this decision many times before, when I was small, and it came to nothing, but I'm older now! Surely this will be a relevant factor!

Anyways, as is always the case when I want to post and don't know what, I will revert to my default - writing about books and stories and things, and demanding that you all entertain me by writing back. One book that I wanted to review in my Massive YA Book Post of a few weeks ago and forgot is The Perilous Gard, by Elizabeth Marie Pope. The book is yet another iteration of the Tam Lin story, and any book that's based off of that is about 90% certain to catch my interest anyways, just because of the main story element: there's a young man in trouble, and there's an ordinary girl who puts on her ass-kicking boots and goes to face down the Queen of the Fairies to save him. It's predictable that this is one of my favorite base stories. There are other ancient story plots, though, that I love and have no idea why. Rapunzel, for example. Princess in a tower raised by a witch gets compromised by a prince and then has to go wander the desert; why do I latch onto this story? Is it because of the pretty hair? (This is sadly plausible, though I've always kind of thought my eternal desire for long hair came from the story, and not the other way around.) There are trope-plots I'm even embarrassed to like. Confession: I almost always fall for the girl-and-her-mentor romance, like Daine/Numair, even though intellectually the age difference and the power differential disturb me when I think about it.

So tell me, what does it for you? What storylines are almost guaranteed to reel you in, and why? Bonus points if it's against your intellectual judgment. I may have asked this question before, I can't remember, but whatever; I want to hear your thoughts now.

(And relying entirely on character tropes is cheating.)

Comments

[agonistes]

I like hero's journey stories that start off with the character in the underworld (rather than have the hero upstairs at the beginning and then descending), and then HILARITY ENSUES.

Firefly counts. (And Serenity ESPECIALLY counts.) The Dark Tower counts. Pretty much any movie by David Lynch ever counts. Hell, even The Emperor's New Groove counts.

What gets interesting about it is how you define the underworld, and then how the hero manages to get himself (or herself) out of it. And what that says about cultural perception. And stuff. I'm supposed to be working. D: D: D: *flees!!*

[skygiants]

Oooh. I'd never thought about it in that way, but you're right - although almost all of those, too, require at least lip service to giving a "How We Got Here To Begin With" explanation, too. The significant difference, I guess, is really that you get your perception of the character fixed to begin with as At Low Point rather than At High Point. And what that low point is says a lot about cultural perception, yeah - quite aside from the fact that in some cases it's an instant way to engage sympathy with a character who would otherwise be unlikable (see: New Groove, Emperor's).

. . . does Roland really ever manage to get himself out of the underworld? (In the books, I mean?)

*The Sweeney fled across the desert, and the Becca followed, waving meta!*

[agonistes]

*nods* No, it makes sense -- there's going to be back story that's got to be filled in, whether it's biographical information, or literal flashbacks (i.e. The Emperor's New Groove).

And...I'd argue that he does. Or that we get glimpses of it, maybe -- the first real, overt hints we get come in DT5, but I've always thought the process starts in DT4 when he finally tells the damned story. But I'm thinking of when he dances the commala, and the part at the very end when Eddie asks him to go after Susannah. And then there are parts in DT7. I mean, we don't even get his name until he speaks the High Speech, way back in DT1 -- that's a hint right off that he's fallen from a state of grace, and when he acts in accordance with proper behavior for somebody born to the High Speech ("Speak the act of contrition in the speech for which better men than you will ever be have died, maggot") is when we get those glimpses. The desert is unquestionably the lowest point, or, er, the underworld. So to speak.

Also, Mal isn't so much the one in the underworld in the series (though he certainly is in the movie). In the series it's Simon. (Which is a huge part of the reason why Simon is my favorite.) And that's where at least some of the cultural perception comes in -- because isn't where Simon has found himself the underworld, according to his own standards? And yet.

*flees back to work*

[campkilkare]

*agreed* When Roland says yes, and turns out of his road for the sake of love, that's a light year away from the man who let Jake drop. And King identifies that "yes" with all the power and promise of the White.

[skygiants]

I was wondering if that's what you would say, as re: Roland. *grins* And I think you're right; the only argument against it, and the obvious argument, of course, is that at the end he's right back in the underworld where he started. He has another tool to help him climb out, too, but . . . I dunno. I would say he's making the climb, and maybe climbs out in the eyes of others. And then there's the literalization of that, in the climb of the tower; he's still climbing up until the end, but the emergence into the overworld (there has to be a better term for that, but I'm blanking) is sort of denied.

And oh, definitely. That's why Simon gets the flashbacks! I mean, Mal gets one too, but it's to his lowest point rather than to a higher one.

[newredshoes]

Quest stories, unbreakable friendships, and children standing up to grown-ups and winning!

Also, talking animals. Animals and creatures and beasts win every time.

[skygiants]

Animals totally win. Especially if they're not either Good or Evil Animals Who Are Symbolic In Their Symbolic Natureness (although those can be fun too), but animals that are actual 3-D characters in their own right!

And, of course, friendships. *squishes friends together* Strong friendships are my very favorite kind of character development.

[minkhollow]

Fractured Fairy Tales are a big one for me, be they in the original Rocky and Bullwinkle incarnation or otherwise. This would be why I latched onto the Enchanted Forest Chronicles (one of the reasons, anyway), and why Witches Abroad is one of my favorite Disc books.
Speaking of the Disc, satire's also a good one for me. XD

I also like smart characters, particularly smart female characters. And redeemable-if-you-squint bad guys (see also Sneakers).

[skygiants]

Oh, me too. That's what got me thinking about tropes to begin with, because I love the reworking of fairy tales - both for comic potential (because who doesn't love comic potential?) and in a more serious fashion. And I have no doubt that Enchanted Forest was a big formative influence on that when I was tiny.

Cinderella isn't usually one of my favorite fairy tales to poke at - I think maybe just because it's done so often - but I do love what Terry Pratchett does with it. I think I like Lords and Ladies a little better because it - well, now that I think on it, has the same Tam Lin elements I mentioned above. Magrat gets to go kick fairy ass!

[furikku.livejournal.com]

Character tropes are more likely to snag me than anything else, really. I really love redemption stories and the shonen animu "I WILL BE THE BEST EVAR WHATEVER-THE-HECK-I-LIKE-TO-DO PERSON!!!" thing, though. (Although that second one usually comes down to the protag as well, since I love the goofy idealist.)

Hero's Journey, duh.

Um... pretty much anything involving tragic ghosts, especially ghost children.

Oh, and Bad Guys made God by the Power of Love. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S CHEESY I WILL EAT THAT SHIT UP. Hell, almost ANY Power of Love story.

[skygiants]

Power of Love can be fantastic if it's well done. And Power of Love or not, I always need my villains at least a little bit redeemable. A completely eeeeeeeevil villain is no fun at all. Give me a reason to identify with them! And if they get to have a character arc and actually grow and change and become sympathetic, then so much the better.

I am not at all drawn by goofy idealists. *eyes Hiro and Mohinder in a sidelong fashion*

[misslucyjane]

Hero's journey. Ahh, I'm such a sucker for Campbell.

Any "reader, I married him" kind of thing. ANY. Jane Eyre is my heroine forever and forever . . . which also means I love Madwoman in the Attic.

And anything playing with the Holy Grail, where the story is ostensibly about the object but is really about the journey.

Also, as an aside, someday when my brain is working again I'm going to write about how Harry Potter is an unreliable narrator.

I'd have a hard time choosing a favorite fairy tale, though I have a huge soft spot for Tam Lin too (I have a great unfinished XF fic using Tam Lin as a model) but I'm very partial to the Bluebeard story, which is kind of a fairy tale, sort of.

[skygiants]

Harry Potter is totally an unreliable narrator, and the implications of that are something I would be very interested to read. *grins*

Oh, the madwoman in the attic, staple of so many Gothic novels everywhere. I like Jane Eyre too, but I have to admit I'm a little more partial to the Rebecca version, just because my namesake is so fabulously evil.

And Bluebeard totally counts as a fairy-tale trope! It's part of the whole man-is-monster/monster-is-man/DON'T SNEAK A PEEK, PSYCHE. NO SERIOUSLY, DON'T cycle.

[misslucyjane]

DON'T SNEAK A PEEK, PSYCHE. NO SERIOUSLY, DON'T cycle.

*snort* Just like saying "don't stick beans up your nose!" You'd think he wanted to murder his wives.

My post-grad area of study was the Romantics, the era of the gothic novel (and so much else wonderful stuff--I love those nutcases) and so I have a HUGE soft spot for them, no matter how ridiculous they are. And it's so funny to think about how influential that model turned out to be--romance novels still thrive on Byronic heroes and windswept moors.

(I have no book icons on this account! Something is wrong here!)

[skygiants]

Honestly! Clearly he never had any wives stick around long enough to have kids, or he would have understood.

Gothic novels are SO MUCH FUN. I love them dearly, even though I often want to pat the heroes and heroines on the head and prescribe some nice prosaic porridge or something. It's fascinating the way they all play off each other, too - I read Wilkie Collins' The Woman in White last month, and there's a bit where he's totally like, "aHAH! You think you know where I'm going with this, you demon gothic novel readers you, but you would be WRONG!"

(Everyone should have book icons!)

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

I like pairs (or groups) of people who are all on equal or semi-equal footing, and who are friends or relatives or lovers (or any mix of the above!), but who are SECRETLY TRYING TO DESTROY EACH OTHER.

. . .

Also revolutions.

Sometimes I like "The Geek Shall Inherit" (TM Wir Sind Helden) stories, but only if they are done well enough to make me forget they are "The Geek Shall Inherit" stories. See also: shameful 'oh, he/she IS me' feel-good-ers.

[skygiants]

I never would have guessed that first. *solemn* Or that second.

(I love revolutions. It's that whole idealism thing, and also idealism-coming-into-contact-with-harsh-reality, whoops, thing.)

Feeling dim, but not quite sure what you mean by 'he/she IS me' feel-gooders. *curious* Example?

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

I know. I am unpredictable in the extreme. *cough*

Oh, I mean that I was a really uncool (although not socially outcast), geeky kid who read on the playground all the time, and so whenever I came across a book whose hero was such a kid (Young Wizardry, for example), I fell hook-line-and-sinker for the "wizards LOVE reading! Just like you!" thing and felt as if the book were about me. It's a little harder to do that to me now, but it still works sometimes.

[skygiants]

- OH. Okay, yeah. Aaaaaaand I totally fell/fall for those too. *cheerfully unrepentant*

I think they're a little less prevalent outside of the YA section - I'm trying to remember recent examples of that trope that I've read to gauge my recent reaction, and failing (although admittedly I spend a fair amount of time in the YA section as well.) Now I kind of miss them!

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

I know, right? I also miss, like, books where (invariably) a boy would go off on RIP-ROARIN' ADVENTURES, like to the California Gold Rush, or he would live in the forest eating treesap and Holding Down the Fort, or he would fly to the moon on the wings of a giant moth... I was also really into the girl versions of these (as you probably also know), but they tended to be more, "girls can't have adventures... EXCEPT ME! I defy societal pressures. ADVENTUROUSLY!" and then there would be an adventure. Unless they were the Oz books, which ruled, because they were unquestioningly just really weird.

[skygiants]

The Oz books were so surreal and fantastic. And the other ones he wrote, too, not just Oz - there was the one where the girl and her dad (grandfather?) hung out in the ocean for a while, and then hung out in the sky for a while, and I have no recollection of the actual plot except that it was wacky funtime adventures.

(In terms of girls having adventures, I have to bring up the awesomely bizarre that is the second Oz book, which is basically "Hey, Very Boyish Adventure-Having Boy, secretly? You are a PRETTY PRETTY PRINCESS.")

I also really miss Siblings on Wacky Adventures stories. I think I really just enjoyed the constant good-natured bickering; no adventure is complete without bickering. And no one writes siblings in the adult world!

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

AND SHE TOTALLY WENT FOR IT, she was so blasé! She was just like, cool, so I'm a pretty pretty princess.

HOWEVER, do you remember - I have no idea which book it was. But Ozma and some girl were in a TRAP, and then Ozma took the girl's hand, and stuck her other hand DOWN HER OWN SHIRT (this took me a while to interpret, not being familiar at the time with the word 'bosom'), and the villain supposedly DIDN'T PAY ANY ATTENTION because both these things were SO NORMAL FOR GIRLS TO DO? Like, what on earth? The older I get, the weirder that is to me. I mean, I've been a girl for a while now, but I don't usually grab my friend's hand and my breast at the same time. And if I did, I don't think it would go unnoticed.

People do write wacky sibling stories! Dexter counts... maybe... I was going to say SPN, but maybe we shouldn't talk about SPN.

[skygiants]

I know! And then she showed up, and everyone else was like, "dude, you're a GIRL, how weird is THAT?" and she was just like *serene smile!*

- I DON'T REMEMBER THAT AT ALL BUT NOW I WANT TO REREAD AND FIND IT. WHAT.

I haven't seen Dexter . . . . SPN counts, but SPN has no girls, and I realize as I type that that I miss girls in sibling stories. I mean, there are freakishly (I use the term with fondness!) considerate and caring siblings like the Tams, but bickertastic siblings! ON ADVENTURES.

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

Ozma was actually going for her -- key? So that she could get them out of the trap? But the narrative's explanation of the villain's non-protesting confused me.

Tams are weird, weird siblings, except when River throws up on Simon's clothes.

[skygiants]

In the unexpurgated version, Ozma was actually trying to use her feminine wiles to seduce the villain. *solemn*

- dude, is there Ozma/Dorothy fic out there? I bet there is. I WANT TO FIND IT.

Tams are normal siblings when they are small! Well, fairly normal. And then they get all Petrelli with bonus crazy.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Have you read Archer's Goon? Not friends/lovers but siblings, admittedly, but still...

[areyoumymemmy.livejournal.com]

Boarding school stories. I am fascinated by boarding school stories, from the old Katy books to And Both Were Young to Rebelde, my mexican soap opera of choice. (And yet I am not a huge Potter fan. Strange.)

Something about them, and I'm not really sure what it is. Maybe I always wished I went to one? They just suck me in, whatever it is.

[skygiants]

Boarding schools have massive potential for fun. I think I read too many boarding-school-as-place-of-SOCIAL AGONY stories (i.e. The Little Princess) when I was little, though, so my perception of them is a little warped; I remember being shocked at finding out my mom went to boarding school, all "was it horrific? Were there abusive prefects? AND SECRET PASSAGES?"

I remember the Katy books, though! Except the only one I really remember is the one where she spent half the book sick.

[ashen_key]

Outcasts, normally cynical, who find a place to belong and try and save the day because of it. My darling Obernewtyn Chronicles, which I really think are THE books of my childhood (even though it's seven years between books four and five in terms of publishing) are about that, even though Elspeth still has her quest. A lot of David Gemmell has that.

But, other then that...I really, really don't know. Really honestly. Sometimes I like quests, but that really has to be how it's written. Girls kicking ass tend to bore me. Boys discovering that they are king bore me, too. Normally. I like them knowing and just ignoring until they can't.

Maybe I'll think of something else. It's really too early to think.

[skygiants]

I don't think I've actually heard of the Obernetwyn Chronicles. :O Tell me more!

Boys discovering that they are king are not something that particularly grabs me, although, as with most things, I'll enjoy it if it's done well - it's the culture clash that interests me more than the OMG I AM SEKRITLY SPECIAL. I do, however, have a well-known fondness for girls kicking ass.

[ashen_key]

Um! It's been years since I've read them, so I'm actually more hazy then I would care to admit on something that had me literally lying on the bed staring the ceiling going 'oh. my' - I'm sorta boycotting the author because she took seven years to write the fifth book.

Wait.

Nine, I think, actually. And it wouldn't be so bad if she didn't write all these other things in the meantime. And then not finish them, either.

BUT! It's set in a post-everything-goes-nucleur-boom world, with the typical very controlling government. Sorta medieval, the main character, Elspeth, is an orphan as her parents were burned for sedition. She's trying to act normal so she can get her certificate for normalcy, but as she IS a mutant, she is delcared a Misfit and sent to Obernetwyn and things get really interesting. Misfits are both those who stand out, and those who have various form of mindpowers, and the powers of be at Obernetwyn do experiments on some of them - one girl used to be like River Tam, but they broke her to stupidity. That's the first book, and after that it's more of a hideout for misfits against the government, and there is a phrophecy and gypsies and relics of their past and our future and MATTHEW.

Oh MATTHEW.

He breaks my heart, that boy.

And then there is betrayal and foreign lands and really, really interesting secondary characters.

[skygiants]

Oooooh.

Really, really interesting secondary characters are actually often a deal-maker for me. *grins* I LOVE lots of awesome secondary characters. I think that's actually the reason that Heroes is the show that clicked for me, and Supernatural didn't; Heroes has five zillion fantastic secondary characters to glomp onto!

*makes mental note of author* *especially as it seems all books are now out?*

[ashen_key]

Matthew. And Damain (I think you spell it) and others and oh, the guy. Name I can't remember (this is TERRIBLE, Becca. I can't remember my childhood!) And DRAGON. Oh, Dragon. Poor Dragon.

And, I don't know. I read the back of the fifth book and I'm not sure if it is the last or not. But the fourth book is MASSIVE, so you mgiht as well start reading them. Plus, I love her style.

Green Monkey Dreams has to be one of my favourite books, ever.

[skygiants]

Well, I do have something of a pile. *eyes desktop ruefully* But! More is always good!

(I know! I hate that! I was looking for a book in the library the other day, and trying to hunt down by vague memory of where it was on the shelf, because I could not remember either the title or the author or the names of the main characters. BUT I REMEMBER THE PLOT. And another one I loved, I found only because I remembered that it had 'Jack' in the title, and hunted through the library search factor using 'Jack' as a keyword until I found one that matched. It's awful!)

[ashen_key]

*grins* hey, maybe by the time you've finished, she would have finished the series.

I can but hope, anyway.