(no subject)

[skygiants]

I think my favorite thing about Martha Wells' The Cloud Roads is how it's basically just Anne McCaffrey's Dragonflight if you cut out the humans and had all the emotional drama focused on the dragons instead?

I mean, the protagonists are not called dragons, they're called Raksura. But they're basically dragons. Were-dragons? Shapeshifters who have one vaguely two-legged form and one flying lizard form that is pretty much dragon. (Some of the lizards are non-flying, we'll get to that.) And the dragons come in different cool colors, and some colors are fertile so they get to be queens (female) and consorts (male) and be in charge, and some colors aren't. In Pern the dragons, while intelligent, never really have any issues about this, because having issues about biology is a job for human protagonists. But the dragons in Cloud Roads don't really care about humans and therefore get to have all their issues themselves. "I mean, I get that it's a problem that your community doesn't have any consorts right now but it's still a BIT WEIRD how the queens suddenly started dumping presents on my doorstep as soon as I showed up? PERHAPS WE SHOULD TAKE IT SLOW."

Moon, our protagonist, gets to have the most issues because his family was tragically killed when he was a kid and far away from any other Raksura, and he's been wandering around for years with no idea of what species that he actually is, other than it's shapeshifting and has a dragon form that vaguely resembles the dragon form of another EVIL species that's flying around and therefore people tend to freak out when they see it. The EVIL species is also interested in Moon, for reasons. Anyway, despite his deep-rooted conviction that he will be FOREVER ALONE!!!, Moon then encounters a Raksura colony and gets to be our audience viewpoint character for finding out all about the Raksura and being moderately uncomfortable with his new role and the societal and reproductive expectations thereof. And also with not being FOREVER ALONE!!!, since this is sort of a dramatic circumstantial shift. (Just like Lessa in Dragonflight! No, Martha Wells is certainly a better writer than McCaffrey and I'm maligning her unfairly. But the parallels are there.)

The setup flirts with some reversals of gendered expectations -- consorts are expected to be delicate and high-strung! queens fight over them and then they go with the victor! and Moon is used to being ALONE and he's not LIKE the HIGH-STRUNG PRINCESS CONSORTS that the queens were EXPECTING, excuse YOU -- but Wells is not super invested in exploring biological determinism. The evil species is pretty much EVIL, and some early dropped hints about class and role-related complications in Raksura society don't really get picked up in this book. There are two sequels, though, so maybe then? And, I mean, it's all very entertaining, I will totally read the sequels. I am very happy to read about dragons negotiating awkward social dynamics for a couple hundred pages.

(Although, honestly, my favorite characters were the two plot-relevant cranky humanoids. I would apologize for being human-centric but I'm probably just contrariness-centric.)

Comments

[sophia_sol]

somehow I managed to never make the connection with Anne McCaffrey and I have NO IDEA HOW, this is amazing

[skygiants]

Every so often I am forced to come face to face with exactly how thoroughly Pern permeated my childhood and it's always a little uncomfortable.

[sovay]

Every so often I am forced to come face to face with exactly how thoroughly Pern permeated my childhood and it's always a little uncomfortable.

I made a stuffed animal fire lizard in ninth grade. Gold, so a queen, with blue eyes. Her name is Sheyna Meydl.

[skygiants]

Yiddish-named fire lizards are my FAVORITE fire lizards.

[genarti]

I NEVER DID EITHER. Becca said this, and I was like, "I mean... I guess? I guess yes! Sure!"

[starlady]

I haven't read these ones, but I adored her Fall of Ile-Rien books, and the Raksura ones are on my list.

[skygiants]

This is the first of hers I've read! What are the Ile-Rien books like?

[starlady]

Um, geez, hmm? Indiana Jones if Indiana Jones were a woman with depression, French, a former playwright, the daughter of Moriarty, and spent all his time trying to stop the Nazis overrunning France, except the Nazis are evil wizards with airships from another dimension, and her sidekicks are wizard hunters from same said dimension. They're really great, and Tremaine (the protagonist) is one of the few people I've read in fiction who is as sarcastic as I am. If you like Mosca Mye and the Raksura books, I think you would like Ile-Rien too.

[skygiants]

OK, I'm intrigued!

[aella_irene]

There are two books set before them: The Death of the Necromancer, set in the previous generation, and The Element of Fire, set a few hundred years earlier, featuring Thomas Boniface, long suffering Captain of the Dowager Queen's Guard, who is hunting a Magician responsible for multiple deaths, and kidnapping and Kade Carrion, illegitimate daughter of the late King, and the Fae Queen of Air and Darkness, coming back to the court where she grew up to Do Things (Evil or Not Evil? Kade's not telling)

They aren't essential reading, but they do make some of the emotional points hit harder.

[sovay]

Indiana Jones if Indiana Jones were a woman with depression, French, a former playwright, the daughter of Moriarty, and spent all his time trying to stop the Nazis overrunning France, except the Nazis are evil wizards with airships from another dimension, and her sidekicks are wizard hunters from same said dimension.

Confused, but sold.

[sovay]

(Although, honestly, my favorite characters were the two plot-relevant cranky humanoids. I would apologize for being human-centric but I'm probably just contrariness-centric.)

Talk to me about the plot-relevant cranky humanoids.

[skygiants]

The first one is a wife of convenience that Moon has when he's living among one particular group of humanoids; they're basically stuck together by the rest of the group because she's a difficult sort of person to live with and doesn't get along with her family. Moon thinks he's keeping his shapeshifting secret from everyone, but when the rest of the group finds out and turfs him out (with extreme prejudice), it turns out that she knew all along and has been keeping quiet because she's highly pragmatic and found their marriage-of-convenience congenial for the purpose of Not Living With Her Annoying Family, Ugh. She turns up again later to be of cranky plot assistance, and Moon ends up helping her to leave and have her own adventures; I don't know if we end up seeing more of her in later books, but I would be very happy to do so, because she was totally my favorite.

The other one is a member of a group that the Raksura are trading with; he is deeply suspicious of the Raksura and convinced they're going to cheat the family and/or eat his grandfather or something. Of course he ends up having to be the one who stays behind in a Perilous Situation with the Raksura when everything about the deal goes haywire due to evil third parties. We don't see too much of his grudging alliance with the Raksura because the POV character promptly takes off to go on a side quest, but what little we do makes me very curious about the rest of it!

[sovay]

it turns out that she knew all along and has been keeping quiet because she's highly pragmatic and found their marriage-of-convenience congenial for the purpose of Not Living With Her Annoying Family, Ugh.

That's pretty awesome.

We don't see too much of his grudging alliance with the Raksura because the POV character promptly takes off to go on a side quest, but what little we do makes me very curious about the rest of it!

If you get anything on this front for Yuletide, let me know.

[elsane]

I love both Selis and Niran rather a lot. I hope we get to hear more from Selis someday. Wells hinted that we might get to see her in a short story sometime.

I uh also love the Raksura and especially the long delicate (and facepalm-y) process of watching Moon learn how to have a community, but rather more iddily than you do.

Normally I really do mind biological determinism, but I don't here so much -- especially the Fell, something about the setup of the world just pinged me as "ok, sapient predator species are a thing, this world is red in tooth and claw" and I rolled with it. It does get more complicated in book 3 but not in a way that becomes a central theme. Book 2 takes a long hard look at social role expectations in the Raksura and how badly Moon doesn't fit -- it's most of the point of book 2, really, to give you a better sense of how Raksura culture is set up, and what it expects from its different castes (and how different people fill those roles, or don't, or chafe at them).

I had never connected this to Pern. I feel silly now.

TL;DR THEY HIT ME IN MY WORLD-BUILDING ID, I AM NOT SORRY

[skygiants]

I super want the Adventures of Selis! Making her irritable way across the three continents, quietly judging everyone. Do we get any more of Niran in the other books?

Yeah, the EVIL of the Fell didn't super bother me either, but I'd been alerted to it going in so I was just like 'OK, this is a High Fantasy thing,' and then even the little bit of 'oh, the Fell DO care about each other!' that we got at the end of the first book was a pleasant surprise. I am definitely looking forward to finding out more about Raksura society and social role expectations! The worldbuilding is tons of fun.

(What I really want to know most of all is what kind of advantage the non-flying Raksura species get from their symbiosis with the flying Raksura when everyone agrees that the non-flying Raksura bring the most valuable qualities to the table! I mean, I appreciate that the flying Raksura also have some valuable qualities and are worth keeping around, but, like ... why put them in charge ...?)

[ase]

I super want the Adventures of Selis! Making her irritable way across the three continents, quietly judging everyone.

That sounds like a fantastic Yuletide prompt. *Files for future reference*

[elsane]

Well, the queens can do that mind-whammy-colony-unity thing, so that probably put an end to any idea that other arrangements were even possible. As far as I can tell the Arbora get magic (mentors are supposed to be thanks to consortly breeding) and defense, and possibly also the benefits of having someone to run their errands, since it seems that the Arbora are not particularly adventurously minded (though culture probably plays some role here as well).

And we get some more Niran in book 2! But sadly not chapters on chapters of him.

(I love that little joke that develops off-page, "Salt, Strike, make sure nothing eats Niran." it's such a great touch.)

[skygiants]

What weirds me out a little bit as far as the species symbiosis goes is how everyone's reaction to Chime seems to indicate that most people in the colony think being Aerith is better somehow, an automatic up-change in status -- and except for that one mention by someone wise about how the Arbora are secretly in charge after all, the rest of the Aerith, at least, seem to agree. So of course I'm immediately like DOWN WITH THAT! Overthrow the monarchy, governance by a democratically elected council of Arbora!

I am excited for more Niran. I hope nothing eats him. :D (Developing that time: ALSO definitely a worthwhile Yuletide prompt.)

[genarti]

I am right there with you on the WORLD-BUILDING ID FULL OF WORLDBUILDING AND ALSO COMPLEX PREDATION WEBS THOUGH. I do see the objections about the Fell being EEEEVIL that some people have, but I'm mostly just fascinated by the way she makes apex predators sentient and writes from the POV of another sentient species that are both potential Fell prey and top predators so far as basically everybody else is concerned, and how that tangles moral expectations. Especially since we have so many other species along various points of the Redness In Tooth And Claw Spectrum cropping up here and there.

(I need to reread this series! I was going to write you a birthday ficlet about Raksura, actually, and then I looked at my free time and my inability to remember the names of 90% of the characters at this point other than classifying most of them as Nature Noun, and decided that I could not write any fic in this world without rereading everything immediately before. *laughing* But even aside from all fic questions I would want to reread and roll around in the worldbuilding.)

[skygiants]

You know, the thing is, I'm not actually bothered by the biological determinism when reading so much as I'm bothered by how I'm not bothered by it? Like, if everyone was humans, I know a lot of what's happening would grate on me significantly more than it does. And why should I have a different reaction when it's sentient nonhumans who to most intents and purposes think pretty much like humans do? I don't actually think I should, I think that's a bit ridiculous. But also revealing.

(I mean, I think the Fell thing would also be less egregious if they were just apex predators and didn't also think TORTURE IS SUPER NIFTY KEEN, but.)

[genarti]

I dunno -- I mean, yes, I think that reaction is worth self-examination. But on the other hand, when characters are human with a lot of biological determinism layered on top, we know that humans don't actually work that way. It's not just easier identification, it's also genuinely being a member of that species.

Whereas yes, if it's a legitimately different kind of sentient being that doesn't exist in the real world, I'm willing to go further with the author telling me that things really do work that way for this alien species. I'm not willing to accept it 100% uncritically, if the author's inconsistent or not interrogating or complicating the set-up at all, but I'm willing to go "Okay, sure, Queens and consorts work that way! Okay, sure, the Fell have a really strong predation drive which is basically their primary motivating factor towards all non-Fell species! Let's see what these individuals do with that." Whereas if you want me to believe that a human woman in a ruling role is inevitably going to feel a drive to X and Y and Z, you damn well better either make it magically imposed somehow (and handle that really, really well) or make it an individual personality thing rather than inevitable after all, or else subvert the heck out of that initial statement. I know some human women in charge of things, and history provides me with a lot more examples, and I have a pretty solid idea of how that works. But for a Raksura Queen, well, I'm taking Martha Wells' word for all of everything about what a Raksura is and does and feels.

(As you say, the fact that the Fell have a really strong predation drive and a really strong WHEEEE TORTURE LET'S TORMENT PEOPLE AWESOME drive is a complicating factor that definitely makes things more egregious, though.)

[elsane]

This is a useless comment where I say "YEAH THIS"!

(Except it's not quite torture so much as 'utter empathy fail' -- and it's super creepy, but it's also what makes them uniquely horrific. That and the identity issues, and the times when the empathy comes out in awful alien ways. The Tath aren't the big bads in the same way, because they may be awful (and offscreen) but not skincrawlingly horrible. The Fell don't get off on torture so much as utterly and completely not care if their prey is hurting. Ok I'll shut up now.)

[skygiants]

I have two reactions to this!

a.) I mean, yes, I totally get it, and I think that's part of my reaction as well, "I know humans aren't this way, who knows about anything else! Especially fictional species!" But when I stop again to question that reaction, I start wondering if for us to think we're the only species that's not locked in by biology, that only humans are special enough that personality can transcend genes -- I dunno, I can't help but feel like there's something kind of hilariously arrogant about that idea. (Also, it isn't true! Look at all those weird cats who think they're dogs!)

And, I mean, this is all super hypothetical anyway because, like, what does it matter if we're species-centric if we never encounter any other actual species who are intelligent enough to care? But science fiction/fantasy is about making you think through the perspective of other different beings, so I do think it's worth bringing up, especially since

b.) I mean, the Raksura do, in other ways, think a lot like humans -- it's very rarely that I'm jarred out of the narrative by something definitively alien in the way Moon looks at the world. And, I mean, that's fine, and I think that's part of the point, to make you think of these giant lizard-people apex predators as people with their own plot and agency; but if that's the case, then I think there is a little bit more of a responsibility to question the levels of determinism that are set up, because ... it's easy for narratives to work in reverse, you know? We internalize the stuff we read a lot of the time, without thinking about it. So reading about biological determinism in an imaginary lizard-species is one thing, and reading about biological determinism that's not really interrogated in an imaginary lizard-person protagonist with whom we are identifying and thinking of basically as a person like us is something a little bit different, you know?

Anyway. I'm not saying she doesn't question it, and I haven't read the next two books, so what do I even know? And your points are valid too, and, I mean, obviously I also think it's worthwhile exploring alien biological drives in the context of individuals. But I'm still gonna make the argument it's worth thinking about, and critiquing, and being a little bit bothered by.

[elsane]

But something interesting (that I noticed more when I reread the series) was that in a lot of ways the Raksura do think and react in subtly but recognizably non-human ways -- the way the Arbora chatter and dissect problems, the way the Aeriat squabble, they're both very distinctive -- it's a neat tightrope, they're close enough to human to be sympathetic, but far enough to be distinctly inhuman.

And I agree with you, it doesn't bother me because they're not human, in a lot of ways that actually really matter for the society we're shown, and AT THE SAME TIME it's also clear that the Raksura are over-interpreting biological differences.

I'll be really curious to hear what you have to say about the new wrinkles we get in book 3. I think they work really well in some ways but less so in others.

[skygiants]

They didn't register to me as that distinct or inhuman, or at least not yet, but I also wasn't looking for it. So we'll see what happens when I read the next two -- I'm curious too! I just wrote a novel in response to Gen above about my slight discomfort with the biological determinism, but basically: I'm still a little wary about it now, but I am very curious to see how it goes on to be handled down the line.

[elsane]

And Fell are not just apex predators, they are apex predators combined with parasites and rather terrifying lack of anything any other species recognizes as empathy. Way creepier than the Gobin and Tath!

(Awwww that is SO SWEET OF YOU I am absolutely charmed, also laughing my head off about Nature Noun. The books are on my phone which means I dip into them when I have an odd 15 minuts free here and there, and also they make excellent stress relief books for me for some reason, and I have hit the point of ridiculousness where the thing that fascinated me most in the recently published novella was not the Shiny!Sensawunda!Plot! but the way River is navigating the change in his status post-Ember. I would read a whole day-in-the-life fat Austenesque novel where the most consequential thing that happened was an injudicious comment on a picnicking trip. Worldbuilding, id, sorry I'm ridiculous.)

[annotated_em]

*notes title and author for later reference*

[skygiants]

:D

[kate_nepveu]

Hah. See, my fannish connection with these is _SGA_ (among other things, Wells wrote some tie-in novels--quite good ones, as you'd expect), as you can moderately easily map some of the characters. Pern did not occur to me!

I thought the third book was a little too much, but enjoyed the first two a lot, and will get around to the collections one of these days.

[skygiants]

Ha, whereas I have never seen a single episode of SGA -- I ducked that fannish zeitgeist completely. I'm having trouble making the mapping from my extremely limited knowledge! Do they ... travel to other worlds at some point ....? Is Moon supposed to be the one with the doofy face?

[kate_nepveu]

Hah. No, it's character types.

Moon = John Sheppard, the awkward undersocialized loner who finds a family (see this hilarious transcription from the episode "Sateda").

Chime = Rodney McKay, the excitable polymath who finds himself struggling in a new role (offworld exploration and attendant personal dangers). (I really don't know which of these you think has a doofy face, it could be either! John has the dark hair and Rodney has the wider face, if that helps)

Jade = Teyla, the fierce clueful one.

(I can't remember if anyone maps onto Ronon, the fourth team member, but I didn't think so.)

[skygiants]

I think of John as the one with the doofy face! I mean, they both have doofy faces. But since my only exposure to SGA for years was through people's icons, I spent most of the time the show was on air convinced Sheppard's character was, like, Nathan Fillion levels of intentionally ridiculous until people explained to me that he was meant to be serious and stoic, and I was like, 'but ... his face is so doofy .....? I don't ....'

[jinian]

Took The Cloud Roads with me to bed last night having seen this, because yay comfort reading.

[skygiants]

Comfort reading is the best!

[lnhammer]

I'm reading my way through Wells's backlist, working up to reading the Fall of Ill-Rien and then this trilogy. (Why not start with Fall? Because there are two standalone novels in that universe, that come earlier. The Element of Fire was pretty nifty, but I got distracted from Death of a Necromancer by a prettier shiny and haven't gotten back to it.) Everything I've read about The Cloud Roads, including this, suggests I'll quite like it.

---L.

[skygiants]

There is a trenchant recommendation for the Ile-Rien books above as well! I'm inclined to believe I'll enjoy them. :)

[ase]

How did I miss the Anne McCaffrey influence?

Right, I was completely wrapped up in the SGA influence.

This is ridiculously appropriate timing, as I tripped and feel into rereading The Cloud Roads over the holiday weekend. "I'll just skim a bit - how did I come to be fifty pages into The Serpent Sea?"

I'm thinking a lot about biological determinism in the series, in between sighing at Moon's complete failure to understand court politics and etiquette.

[skygiants]

I'm not sure how to feel about the fact that I'm the only one whose first thought was Anne McCaffrey ... I mean, overall, I would probably prefer a less McCaffrey-contaminated brain. BUT ALAS, my fate is sealed.

The biological determinism is interesting! I feel like I need to read the other two books to comment on it more, because I'm not quite sure what Wells is really doing with it yet. Or if she meant to do something with it but got distracted by Moon's complete failure to understand court politics and etiquette, which, I mean, fair.

[ase]

I came to McCaffrey a smidge late - high school instead of middle school - which may be why I am slower to think of her work.

There's something about how the social castes are biologically locked in and yet this is completely unquestioned in the narrative. There's Arbora and Aeriat and the sub-categories and it is what it is. There might be stereotypes to be worked around - Moon refutes the delicate high-strung consort stereotype pretty frequently - but there isn't a lot of crossover between groups, or when there is (Chime) it's a sign of catastrophe in the social order. It's tickling something uncomfortable in my back-brain that I'm still poking at.

Clearly I need to reread the rest of the series and the new short story collection to figure out what's bugging me.

[skygiants]

Elementary school. ;____;

Moon does refute the delicate high-strung consort stereotype, to a certain extent, but, I mean, when he calls it out, it's immediately bounced back at him with "omg, Moon, you are TOTALLY high-strung" -- which, I mean, is hilarious! I laughed! It's fun to hear our brooding hero accurately called out in that way, BUT it also plays right back into the same biological determinism thing.