(no subject)

[skygiants]

You know that trope, that very common trope, where there's a character that's nonhuman, or not-quite-human -- dangerous, eerie, other, powerful, has no reason to care about the fate of human beings -- and then there's True Love With A Human Being and that changes them and makes them more human, for better or worse?

OK, it should surprise no one that one of my favorite tropes is that trope, except instead of True Romantic Love with a human being that grounds the powerful inhuman character, it's the true and unmistakable feeling of older sibling-hood. At heart, underneath your human veneer, you're an inhuman powerful whatever, except now circumstances have landed you with a water bottle (wherein water bottle means 'annoying younger sibling') and you gotta be responsible for this water bottle which means that at heart, underneath your human veneer, you are constantly feeling one of the most human emotions imaginable: SHEER EXASPERATION.

The two books that I can think of at the moment that do this are two of my very favorite books. (I reread one of them for our book club this month, which is why I'm thinking about this right now.) Three times makes it a real trope, so I'm inviting examples!

Comments

[kore]

Of course now I can't think of any real examples (the dynamic of Felix/Mildmay in the first Labyrinths books keeps coming to mind, but Mildmay isn't a monster) but that's a great trope!

[skygiants]

I have not read the Labyrinth books, but my understanding is that Felix/Mildmay is kind of a sexy dynamic as well as a sibling dynamic? Which I think might lead me to rule it out anyway -- one of the things that charms me about this version of the trope is that the particular feelings of love involved are ABSOLUTELY ANTITHETICAL to anything sexy.

[kore]

It is not sexy exactly but sort of subterranean slashy? I don't think there is any actual incest but there is kind of a Fraught Atmosphere. It wasn't quite sexy tho. It was like Kirk/Spock with the glass put back in, if that makes sense.

[brownbetty]

I don't mean to disagree, but my reading of them was that there very much was a sexy undertone. In a way, it reminded me of smarm; a lot of "we're so close! but it's not sexy!" that did not, for me, make it not weirdly sex.

[kore]

Oh no, I know what you mean! It was kind of....Schrödinger's sexiness, ha. Sexy and not-sexy. Definitely not the sibling-esque dynamic our hostess was looking for, anyway, altho I liked the bits where Felix was raving out of his mind and Mildmay had to take care of him.

[monanotlisa]

That is a great trope -- the push-and-pull of siblinghood is so strong and so compelling; I may have to check out these books.

[skygiants]

THEY'RE BOTH SO GOOD, I cannot recommend highly enough!

[graycardinal]

There is a good bit of that sort of chemistry -- though mostly between actual human siblings -- in L. J. Smith's The Night of the Solstice and its sequel, Heart of Valor. (That said, I think the mentor figure in those books, quasi-immortal sorceress Morgana Shee, would be right there with you on the SHEER EXASPERATION at certain moments.)

[skygiants]

I love those books tremendously! I'm not sure they quite fit the particular variant of the trope I'm talking about, but the sibling dynamics in them are SO GOOD.

[katarik]

It doesn't entirely fit this trope, but for Spoiler Reasons, I think you might enjoy the Demon's Lexicon trilogy (Lexicon, Covenant, Surrender, by Sarah Rees Brennan) -- the nonhuman character remains nonhuman, but has an interesting relationship with humanity and hallmarks of said due to sibling relationship.

(Also the romantic relationships wind up being nicely complicated and believable, sometimes in unhealthy ways, and I love the female characters in the trilogy soooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuch).

[skygiants]

I've read 'em! :D You're right that Nick being the younger sibling rather than the older means it doesn't quite have the same dynamic as the other two on my list, but it's pretty close.

[brownbetty]

I was gonna rec them! They have a lot of great sibling dynamics.

[dimestore_romeo]

These are great! I think the first book, with solely Nick pov, is my favourite, but I love reading SBR's commentary and cut scenes too.

[aquamirage]

Is Steven Universe a book

[skygiants]

I almost used my Pearl icon for this post

[ellen_fremedon]

Does Breq and Seivarden's dynamic count?

[rymenhild]

Jinx!

[melannen]

I was actually wondering if Breq/Anaander counted (in BOTH DIRECTIONS AT ONCE, they are both simultaneously the younger and older, more and less human of the pair.) But yeah Breq/Seivarden works better I just have ISSUES

I was also thinking about Scorpion Rules but I think the first book was more a set-up for that in the second book.

[skygiants]

wait, sidenote, the second Scorpion Rules book is out???

[melannen]

Oh, no, not that I know of, sorry, I was just doing some completely unspoiled extrapolation

[vass]

I was about to comment and mention that as slightly orthogonal.

Because when she rescues Seivarden, that is such a ship thing. She was forced to kill her favourite officer, then all of her other current officers were also killed, and then her first contact with another person from the Radch, it's one of her officers, half-dead and in need of help and a lot of care.

Breq frames her actions there as a human impulse she doesn't understand, but it's so very explicable as a ship impulse that it seems like she's discounting that explanation because she doesn't/didn't think ships' motivations counted, beyond their duties while they were ships.

She does become more human over the course of the trilogy, in some ways, but I think the overarching theme is more her claiming her personhood, not as a human but as an AI.

I think Seivarden doesn't humanise Breq so much as she motivates Breq to be more creative about finding options other than "and then I'll sacrifice myself for revenge/to save everyone/the needs of the many/to save just a few other people/because it's a Monday." The SHEER EXASPERATION is very true, though.

[skygiants]

I wouldn't quite classify it as an example of this because I agree with vass below that I don't think Breq necessarily gains any new feelings or becomes particularly person-ier on account of Seivarden (and really a big part of the story is about how Breq/One Esk doesn't have to become person-ier to be a person) BUT that said, I think I love it for many of the same reasons. :DDD

[rymenhild]

Can Breq + Seivarden be a version of the trope, although we get it from Breq's perspective?

[skygiants]

In the other versions of the trope that I am thinking of you get this from the elder-sibling perspective as well! But that said I don't think it's quite this for reasons I said to ellen_fremedon above.

[cinaed]

...I feel like I must have read and loved this dynamic, and YET MY MIND IS DRAWING A BLANK.

Though I do feel like my favorite dynamic of the Wild Magic series was actually Daine, Maura, and super exasperated Rikash.

[hokuton_punch]

I could have read a whole quartet that was Daine, Maura, and Rikash. I LOVED RIKASH SO MUCH.

[dimestore_romeo]

RIKASH

He seriously made the series for me. He was so weak to Maura.

[skygiants]

SUPER EXASPERATED RIKASH WAS DEFINITELY THE BEST PART OF THAT SERIES.

(it's been at least fourteen years and I don't remember who Maura is >.>)

[dimestore_romeo]

Can I...you know what, I'm going to rec some anime. Because this is my favourite anime trope of all time.

- Noragami, in which Yato, the god of war, somehow acquires a human and must negotiate complicated power struggles of spiritual existence while also protecting his human, his only true follower! One of those when he is a lot more older and complex and destructive than he appears.

-Natsume Yuujinchou. The anime that spoiled me forever for all things. I have never found something that comes close. Zero romance, just aching loneliness and tender friendship. Natsume can see youkai, and when they aren't trying to kill him they find him adorable and Their Human. Also he is mentored by a loud and grumpy round cat who secretly really loves him and has powers beyond comprehension, so. It's all about the points where youkai and humans connect.

In conclusion - I'm a sucker for the blue and orange morality of Japanese mythology done thoughtfully in anime. I spent four seasons legit crying at Natsume Yuujinchou.

I was going to say A Long Way to a Small Angry Planet, and I think in a way that kind of qualifies. But it's also kind of sexy, so.

[schneefink]

Both of these sound very interesting! Thanks for the recs.

[jinian]

Oh, man, Natsume Yuujinchou forever.

[skygiants]

Yes, please do! I've been meaning to read and/or watch Natsume Yujinchou for yeeeeeears, but this has definitely pushed it even higher on my list, and have seen references to Noragami without knowing what it was about and been very curious.

[hebethen]

I found Noragami pretty male-gazey in that stereotypical pandering-anime way and stopped watching despite interest in the concept, but that definitely can't be said of Natsume Yujinchou. Though I think it is often not necessarily about youkai being humanized by their affection for particular humans, but rather people -- humans or youkai -- being insurmountably alien to or alienated from one another despite the presence of that affection. (Or vice versa: the persistence of love despite alienness?)

[dimestore_romeo]

I completely understand. I was a little dubious but I decided to give it a shot, and Bishamonten ended up being my favourite and most heroic character. In the second season, she gets better armour, too...

And re Natsume - yes, you're right. I think the effort to under each other/inability to quite get it right was something I loved. Love despite alienness, and compassion for it.

[dimestore_romeo]

I hope you love it! It's my go to emotional satisfaction drama, haha.

Yeah, with Noragami it took me a while. I was really surprised at how emotionally mature it was - and this hits a whole new level in the second series. The concept is that every god has spirits that are companions and followers, but whenever they do or think something bad it rebounds on the god and injures them, with varying levels of consequence.

[snickfic]

No new examples, I'm afraid, but I have to pop in and say that Cuckoo Song made me happier than any other book I've read in years. The way it treated Tris as a character instead of a plot goblin was the twist to that trope that I never knew I needed but absolutely did. But then everything else about it was also perfect. Just incredible.

[skygiants]

IT'S SO GOOD. SO GOOD! Rereading it was great because even more than before, it made me appreciate all the scenes that I've seen before from someone else's perspective, and how the simple act of having Trista's POV switches everything around.

also Violet is way dreamer than any children's book character has any right to be