(no subject)

[skygiants]

Poor genarti has already been the victim of too many of my efforts to explain to her and myself why, despite liking many things about the latest Star Wars movie, it left me sadder than I wanted to be, so now I am going to dump it on the internet instead. Hi, internet!

I walked out of that film thinking 'gosh, that bodycount, this feels like the highest ever for a Star Wars film maybe?' This is patently not true. It is not true even for Star Wars Movies That Have Come Out In The Past Three Years. In The Force Awakens, the First Order destroy an entire planet. In Rogue One, literally everyone dies! But I walked out of The Force Awakens feeling delighted and joyous, and I walked out of Rogue One feeling ... OK, mostly feeling really, deeply understood in the matter of the difficulties of digital archiving but also feeling like that was a movie that understood its own costs and was saying something with them that I thought was worth saying.

It's not just that about 95% of the Rebellion dies in The Last Jedi. It's a combination of the two facts that:
- the movie is very careful to make you feel the impact of the deaths
- Finn, Rose and Poe all achieve an astonishing amount of nothing at all with their plotline except to accidentally bring about a whole lot of death that would otherwise have been avoided

And I feel weird about it because, you know, in principle I do appreciate some of these Hot Narrative Takes on Standard Star Wars Tropes. I don't like invisible death onscreen, normally, I would much rather know and care about who's dying onscreen than have the fact of all that death be ignored. And I do, in theory, like that wild gambles don't always pay off, that sometimes a chance results in a failure. But the combination of those things, to the degree that it was in this film -- it felt like too much for me.

Or rather, I guess, it feels like too much if all those dead ships and that failed plan and that massive mistake aren't going to haunt Finn, Rose and Poe for the entirety of the third movie. I don't actually want it to. I like all those characters, Finn is my favorite character, I don't want the narrative where they now have to spend the third movie with the blood of a whole bunch of friends and allies (...well, Poe and Rose's friends and allies, I guess Finn didn't actually know any of them, BUT STILL) on their hands. That doesn't sound like fun to watch, and I don't actually think it's the third movie we'll get (though, I mean, I could be wrong.) But I also don't want a narrative where all those deaths don't actually matter enough to get our beloved space heroes depressed about it. So either way I'm not going to be happy about the fallout from this film, and I resent the narrative decision-making that put me in that position, because I want to be happy and I want to enjoy watching our space heroes quip and bounce around and have adorable hugs with no qualms whatsoever.

Oh, well. Finn and Rey had a very good hug and the new Disney aliens were very cute and Luke's melodramatic teleconference battle with Kylo Ren was hilarious, it's not like I didn't enjoy myself. Lovely visuals! Lots of fodder for the Emo Kylo Ren Twitter account! RED SAND.

Comments

[sovay]

But the combination of those things, to the degree that it was in this film -- it's too much. It feels like too much, for me.

Is part of the problem that the film doesn't seem be aware of what it has done in combining these two factors, or do you feel like it knows it and that's part of the problem instead?

[labingi]

Off-topic, but I love your icon!

[sovay]

Off-topic, but I love your icon!

Thank you!

[brownbetty]

Yes! Like it feels like the movie ... does not know they were responsible for those deaths?

[skygiants]

I feel like it maybe remembered that they were for a hot second ... and then it glossed right over it again because it wasn't relevant for the rest of the story it wanted to tell.

[skygiants]

I honestly am not entirely sure. I think it's -- not not trying to do something with this. Like, I think it is hypothetically possible that Rian Johnson could sit me down and explain what he was trying to do and I would nod along and agree that sounded interesting and like a good idea. But I do think one has to be careful, when setting up a moment of Our Heroes Are Taking Risks With People Not Toys, to remember that ... our heroes are in fact taking risks with people and not toys.

[vivien]

I've discovered that even the most ardent of fans were disturbed and dismayed upon the first viewing (second viewings helped, fwiw). I was deeply disturbed by the decimation of the Resistance, but for me... it fit. It fit with my life, how horrible things have gotten, how it's so damn hard to have hope, but how you have to keep hoping or lose your mind. It was not Sci-fi escapism, and for me, it worked. It was utterly different from what I expected, and I have no idea what to expect for IX. So it was a gamble that worked for me, and with every viewing, I still feel the pain, but I feel the hope there, too.

[skygiants]

I think a second viewing will probably help for me too, but it may wait until after the third movie comes out when I know how it's all going to turn out ok. (...I mean, I hope it's all going to turn out ok.)

The way you describe feeling about this film is sort of how I felt about Rogue One -- though I know that film was too bleak for some people, too. Anyway, I can definitely see why this worked for people, even though for me it hit all wrong.

[sasha_feather]

I agree with this whole post. I found the film to be emotionally exhausting.

[skygiants]

It's a bit like someone shoved one of the early episodes of Battlestar Galactica into a Star Wars movie, which is ... not what I expect out of a Star Wars movie generally.

[cinaed]

This movie was one of those films where I enjoyed it in the moment, and then when I tried to discuss it with other people afterwards had a dawning moment of "Wait, no, that was terrible, I hated it."

Also I am mad because I came up with a perfect excuse for Lando to be in the movie, and it would've improved Finn and Rose's story line too. :( Also I...kind of see where they were going with Poe learning to be a leader rather than a fighter, but man was it poorly executed. I want Poe to be Leia's successor! Just...not like that.....

[skygiants]

I want to hear about your perfect excuse for Lando!

Yeah, I ... I'm super conflicted because there were things I liked, and the cast is so charming, and yet. I didn't hate it! I'm just .... wistful that I didn't love it.

[bcgphoenix]

Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. I loved it a LOT, and I think it's a very worthy addition to SW canon, but I was not prepared for the relentless heaviness and seeming futility of it all. (There's a reason I still haven't seen Rogue One: I'm not up for a rocks-fall-everyone-dies kind of movie right now.) By the time they hit the mineral planet, I was exhausted.

Granted, I think I'd be a lot less exhausted if not for [GESTURES WILDLY AT THE ENTIRETY OF 2017], but still.

[skygiants]

lol, yeah, by the time they hit the mineral planet I was like "there's a whole nother ACT? But there are only 10 resistance members LEFT!"

I realized five minutes ago, and then said upthread, that it felt like someone shoved an episode of Battlestar Galactica into the middle of a Star Wars movie. Maybe I would feel better if I'd thought to do what I did for all of BSG and prepare a light, cheerful chaser for afterwards.

[julian]

It felt a bit like 37 (in how relentless it was), but very differently done.

[seekingferret]

Leia as Carrie Fisher played her in this movie is clearly carrying the weight of having lost Alderaan and so many friends and comrades over the years, but that doesn't mean her affect was sad and stolid for the whole movie. In fact, we get that line from Holdo about how it was Leia who taught her how to carry all those sacrifices and keep going. We also get the line from Yoda about how it's a teacher's job to teach their failures more than their successes. So for me, it doesn't feel like because our heroes have experienced serious failure and loss in TLJ, they'll be unable to credibly quip and hug in Episode IX. But I guess I'll see how I actually feel when I see Episode IX.

[skygiants]

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to work out why this hits me differently than the destruction of Alderaan in Movie 1 --> Leia in the subsequent films, and I think part of it is that Leia's losses in the early movies never feel to me so pointless. Like, the loss of Alderaan is terrible, but I don't think the movie ever tells us to look at the choices Leia makes to try and save the Rebellion and think: that was a wrong choice, you never should have done that.

But this movie very much invites us to look at the choices that Poe, Finn and Rose make to try and save the day and think: that was the wrong choice, nothing worthwhile came of that at all. And I think for me that's the difference.

[labingi]

This is very well said. Thank you for this perspective. I didn't feel this the way you did, I think because my focus was elsewhere, more on the family/Jedi drama. I do agree with you, though, that the massive loss of life seems somehow not dealt with, and I also have my doubts it will be dealt with in the next film. Part of why I sort of mentally dismissed this issue is that I dismissed a bunch of action-oriented plot holes, which is the sort of thing I tend not to worry much about it. But if you're going to a do move like killing most of the Resistance, it behooves you to have it tactically make sense, and a lot of things didn't (common gripes I've heard: Holdo not telling Poe the basic plan, which would have saved a lot of trouble; the First Order just taking pot shots while the rebels evacuate). Otherwise, it looks like a lot of death--or survival--because the characters are being dumb. I don't know how this will sit with me over time. I'll find some way to reconcile it in my head canon. Hope you can too.

[skygiants]

Yeah, by the time the new movie comes out I'll certainly be mostly over it and ready to enjoy it - because I do love this cast a lot, I'm generally ready to watch them enjoy themselves even if things still nag at me. But for right now, I am still sitting around discontentedly poking holes. (I also don't know why Holdo didn't share the plan! I'm sure it's fanwankable, but it does seem like MUCH COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.)

[labingi]

The explanation I've heard about Holdo--and I think it makes some degree of sense, even if not making her decision ultimately right--is the Poe had just been demoted for recklessness and then addresses her in a rather disrespectful way. To respond to a subordinate with a tone that says, "You're treating me like your subordinate but sure I'll be nice and take you into my confidence as if we were equal partners" would further encourage his insubordination. In short, he needed to be disciplined. I think, though, she could have said that a bit more explicitly; i.e. "You need to earn the right to know."

[skygiants]

Yeah, in a longer film or TV miniseries where we'd gotten to know her character and whatever the dynamics were better, I think that could've worked as a reasonable decision that unfortunately led to these results. But in the movie, I just got frustrated that Poe and Holdo, both of whom I want to like very much, had to carry the Bad Decisions Ball.

[ceitfianna]

Thank you, you've captured a lot of why I left going wait, why does this feel off to me. Also I think they were trying to do so many different ways of looking at failure and sometimes left actual characterization behind, which Star Wars isn't always the best at, but still.

I mean I left with a rush but it didn't last while I'm still having all the feelings about Rogue One and its consequences. As soon as I started thinking about The Last Jedi, I felt annoyed at it and I don't like feeling annoyed at a Star Wars' movie since I care so much Finn, Rey, Poe and Rose. I read the book about the Tico sisters, Cobalt Squadron by Elizabeth Wein, not her strongest book but that plot would have been a wonderful addition. I wanted better for all of them.

[skygiants]

Oh, I forgot Elizabeth Wein wrote a Tico sisters book! I shall have to hunt that down; thanks for reminding me. But yeah, I did want something less futile for these characters in that half of the plot. I don't want to say Star Wars shouldn't deal with failure because obviously it should and does all the time, but I didn't expect it to go so hard in this particular arm of the Star Wars.

[luzula]

Going back to read everybody's reviews after having finally seen it myself.

I walked out of that film thinking 'gosh, that bodycount, this feels like the highest ever for a Star Wars film maybe?'

Yes! I felt like that, too. I mean, I thought Rogue One was basically a hopeful movie even though everybody died. It was people making a deliberate sacrifice in order to pass on the flame. This didn't feel hopeful, it felt like lots and lots of people dying because of the main characters' mistakes and accidents. : (

[skygiants]

Yeah, I definitely agree about Rogue One - it was about the human cost of doing something important, but also, you know, about doing something important. Obviously, not every time lots of people die is a success story about managing something important. But it would be nice if it were.

[julian]

Basically, if Rose & Finn's Canto Bight mission had been authorized by the rest of the Resistance, and if Poe had grudgingly cooperated with Holdo & Co, possibly after the mutiny if Johnson was in love with Leia stunning Poe (and admittedly, it's worth being in love with), and had his Lesson About Leadership within that context, I'd've been happier with it. (Though all timelines would still be ridiculous.)

Otherwise, yeah, there's a lot of innocent blood on basically *the hands of my favorite characters*, wah.

I was able to go with it because every scene with Luke worked for me, and the Yoda scene was worth the price of admission, but it was more unpleasant than usual.

[skygiants]

Yeah, I feel like there was probably a way to get all the beats they wanted out of that plotline and still have people mess up without making everything such ... a needless demonstration of bad judgment on everybody's part? (I also did love Leia stunning Poe, that was great, but. But.)

There was a lot I really did like, and I suspect I would have a better time watching it again knowing what's coming rather than continually being surprised by how grim it is. But yeah.