skygiants: shiny metal Ultraman with a Colonel Sanders beard and crown (yes minister)
[personal profile] skygiants
Xiran Jay Zhao's Iron Widow provided an amicably divisive topic of discussion in the book group for which I read it. Approximately 50% of the group found it a really vividly satisfying and empowering read! I, personally, was in the other 50%. But you might not be!

The premise: it's an AU wherein Wu Zetian is a hot murderous teen who pilots a Gundam and is going to destroy the future patriarchy!

[A short pause here to represent the moment when [personal profile] genarti reminds me that not all mechs are Gundams. Beth, I hear you, and I acknowledge you.]

In the future patriarchy, humanity is under attack by aliens from beyond a Great Wall, and protected by psychically mind-melded teens in giant robots, traditionally a mixed-gender team in which a boy does the active piloting and the girl provides psychic support; unfortunately providing psychic support is very dangerous and the girls often don't survive the experience. Too bad, so sad, but women's lives in this society are so little valued that nobody actually sees this as a problem to be solved.

When Wu Zetian's elder sister is killed by a boy-hero pilot, she decides to sign up for the giant robot army in a suicidal attempt to get Revenge on behalf of her sister and also women generally, much to the dismay of the polite rich boy who loves her! When she then turns out to be a phenomenally powerful pilot, the military promptly pairs her up with their worst best fighter, a convict who murdered his family for Reasons but is too valuable to the military to be executed. This is less to the dismay of the polite rich boy who loves her as it turns out they both find the convict kind of hot. (For those following along with the historical AU, the convict is Li Shimin aka Emperor Taizong and the polite rich boy is a composite of Wu Zetian's various historical extramarital boyfriends.)

All this is well and good so far as it goes; certainly the book leans gleefully into its premise, and certainly I have no objection to an idtastic giant robot rage-and-revenge threesome. However, I could not help noticing that for a book that is so dedicated to protesting the abuse and exploitation of women, it contains remarkably few actual women. Wherever Wu Zetian got her furious feminism from, it's not her mother or grandmother, whom she despises as weak and complicit in their and her own abuse; it's probably not her tragically dead sister, but it's impossible to tell, because Wu Zetian never thinks about her except as an abstract motivating corpse; it's not any other women because Wu Zetian doesn't seem to know any. The first time she has a non-antagonistic conversation with another woman is more than halfway through the book. It happens twice, and doesn't end well.

And, like, aside from a curiosity about what radicalized Wu Zetian not just to her own self-defense but to the defense of Women In The Abstract, it's not that I find this implausible! There is very much a form of feminism that looks like this, in which women in the abstract are worthy of respect, and women in the individual are a disappointment. And I would find that really interesting as the start of a character arc, which perhaps it will be in future books -- but in this particular book, Wu Zetian doesn't really have a character arc so much as a march of destruction. She starts at 100% rage but zero power, and ends at 100% rage and 100% power (plus one cliffhanger moral dilemma.)

For the people I know who loved this book, the spectacle of Wu Zetian demolishing her way through her enemies and wreaking revenge on anyone who ever wronged her and also the patriarchy struck a deep and satisfying chord. For me, it was and remained a challenge to buy in.

I did enjoy the lovingly described celebrity giant robot wedding, though.

Date: 2021-11-17 05:24 am (UTC)
lizbee: A sketch of myself (Default)
From: [personal profile] lizbee
This has been a big hit on Tumblr among exactly the sort of people who made me think I'd enjoy Gideon the Ninth (they were very, very wrong), so I'm glad my initial reaction of, "Oh no, this is NOT going to be the enjoyable feminist romp it sounds like" was on the money.

(Certainly Wu Zeitian didn't do much for women who weren't her -- she was much like Victoria in that regard, and their reigns overlapped enough that I've occasionally contemplated crossover fic alt history shenanigans -- but surely that is something you'd want to fix in an alternate universe like this?)

Date: 2022-01-06 05:38 pm (UTC)
glitteryv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glitteryv
[...] made me think I'd enjoy Gideon the Ninth (they were very, very wrong)[...]

*Muppet-face fistbump of "yeah, Gideon the Ninth was NOT for me either*

Date: 2021-11-17 12:45 pm (UTC)
shadaras: A phoenix with wings fully outspread, holidng a rose and an arrow in its talons. (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadaras
My overwhelming reaction to Iron Widow was shock at how much graphic violence is allowed in YA novels now. The genre standards about violence vs sex are, uh, fascinating!

This novel seemed so mired in misery, and (I agree) not in a particularly compelling way. If I'd reread The Poppy War more recently, I'd compare the two more directly—I think there's a lot of potentially interesting parallels as far as powerful fucked up lower-class girls murdering their way to the top goes—but as it is I can just say that I'm pretty sure The Poppy War knew how horrific it was and I'm not sure that Iron Widow quite did. (That The Poppy War is not a YA book helps with this. That I think Iron Widow can be compared to it says a lot about how far it went anyway, within the bounds of YA.)

I liked the mechs! I liked the fight scenes! I also liked the over-the-top wedding! But the character relationships were working on tropes and not built up as well as I wish they'd been. Even the main trio's romance felt gestured at more than truly established/justified, which is a shame considering how much page-time they had.

but hey canon polyamory in a YA novel; that's nice to see at least!

Date: 2021-11-21 01:00 pm (UTC)
shadaras: A phoenix with wings fully outspread, holidng a rose and an arrow in its talons. (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadaras
I am also deeply curious about the adult novel version! I probably would've liked it better, because, as you say, "the YA-ification of books these days unfortunately does I think tend to file a lot of nuance out" and that extra bit of nuance would've helped this story a lot.

(also, as you say in a bunch of other comments: what if there were more narratively important women! I also want that!)

Date: 2021-11-17 01:44 pm (UTC)
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)
From: [personal profile] sophia_sol
I'd been on the fence about whether to read this book or not, so thank you for this helpful review explaining both what the people who liked it liked about it, and why it didn't work for you; I think it's now clear that this book is not going to be my kind of thing either, alas.

Date: 2021-11-17 03:45 pm (UTC)
lirazel: Felicity Jones as Catherine Morland reading by candlelight with a shocked look on her face ([tv] spend my whole life in reading)
From: [personal profile] lirazel
Same. Which is a shame because I am always on the lookout for more canon OT3s. But that sounds like it's the only thing about it I would have enjoyed, so I'll just read OT3 fanfic instead.

Date: 2021-11-18 01:03 am (UTC)
superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
I heard complaints that it wasn't a true OT3, but just a 'two boyfriend' situation. But someone who's actually read it should confirm...

Date: 2021-11-18 04:23 am (UTC)
genarti: Knees-down view of woman on tiptoe next to bookshelves (Default)
From: [personal profile] genarti
No, it's definitely a triangular OT3.

Date: 2021-11-18 01:27 pm (UTC)
superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Oh that's good to hear, thanks!

Date: 2021-11-18 06:22 pm (UTC)
lirazel: A group of characters having tea in the 2020 adaptation of Emma ([film] bad manners)
From: [personal profile] lirazel
Then I'm not missing out! Because I have no interest in two boyfriend situations, only in true OT3s where everybody loves everybody else and also every angle of the triangle has its own Issues. Which probably explains why I enjoy OT3s so much in fiction but am put off by the idea of polyamory in real life. (For me. I don't care what other people do.)

Date: 2021-11-18 06:26 pm (UTC)
superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
[personal profile] genarti said the complaints were wrong and it was a triangular OT3! Teaches me for repeating stuff about books that I haven't read haha.

Date: 2021-11-18 06:28 pm (UTC)
lirazel: A small striped kitten curls up on top of a stack of books ([books] kitty)
From: [personal profile] lirazel
Haha!

Date: 2021-11-17 02:54 pm (UTC)
copperfyre: (Default)
From: [personal profile] copperfyre
Oh I am delighted to speak to someone about this book because so far no-one I know has read it and I have many thoughts! I think I enjoyed it more than you did, though I also spent this entire book waiting for Wu Zetian to make a female friend, but that… never happened. I had high hopes for the other female pilots and was actually into Wu Zetian’s not particularly friendly relationships with either of them but then they very much remained minor characters.

The last absolutely bonkers forty pages or so also left me a bit ???? Maybe the pacing will make sense when there’s a sequel (I also didn’t realise this was going to be a book with a sequel, so I was miffed about that when I got to the end) but as it is I’m just baffled, though I did kind of of enjoy Wu Zetian’s utter destruction of, um, everything, at the end, which as you say wasn’t so much a character arc for Wu Zetian but did also feel very in-character. I hope that manages to turn into a character arc in the next book.

I did enjoy all the mecha fighting and loved the middle bit of building their own mythology and getting politically married, and honestly I could have done with a lot more of that middle section and all the reluctant politicking and image building. The more I think about it the more I kind of think I maybe wanted the not-YA version of this book? I was also quite astounded that this was YA, given how much graphic violence there is. I mean, I know The Hunger Games is YA and about literal children murdering each other, but there was a lot of very visceral violence in Iron Widow.

Date: 2021-11-21 03:48 pm (UTC)
copperfyre: (Default)
From: [personal profile] copperfyre
I feel like a lot of the characters didn’t really get space to breathe as characters, given the fairly breakneck pace of the book. Even Gao Yizhi was a little thin to me, given he’s the second person we meet in the book and a main character! But I did really want more of the other lady pilots - maybe next book, I say, crossing my fingers! But given the absolutely wild twists in the last thirty pages, who knows what the focus of the next book is going to be.

Maybe a non YA version of this book would have been allowed to be longer and have a slightly slower pace to explore everything a bit more? But I’m not sure that that would have necessarily changed the writing of Wu Zetian’s feminism, which is consistent and unflinching throughout - I really do hope that’s something that gets examined with more nuance in the next book. Maybe there will be more women in it! I could also definitely have done with the last thirty pages of the book being twice as long, because just so much happens there.

I also just wanted to say I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone else’s thoughts here! I apparently really miss book discussions.
Edited Date: 2021-11-21 03:49 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-11-17 03:42 pm (UTC)
larryhammer: floral print origami penguin, facing left (Default)
From: [personal profile] larryhammer
One question: does an AU of Shangguan Wang'er show up in this volume? (I'm guessing not, as historically she rather postdates Taizong, but given how mashy-up this is, it's faintly possible.)

I have a library hold on this, still several weeks out. I suspect it's the sort of book best read with Chinese fantasy webnovel googles on, rather than western YA googles. Speaking of which, have you met It's Not Easy to Be a Man After Travelling to the Future? There's definite genre-element similarities there.

Date: 2021-11-18 06:32 am (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Speaking of which, have you met It's Not Easy to Be a Man After Travelling to the Future?

That is such a good title, I would like you to tell me about this book even if I never get around to reading it.

Date: 2021-11-18 03:28 pm (UTC)
larryhammer: drawing of a wildhaired figure dancing, label: "La!" (dancing)
From: [personal profile] larryhammer
It's been a while since I caught up on the releases, so my memory is a bit rusty, but basically: a contemporary Chinese woman is reincarnated (with memories) thousands of years in the future, where for inheritance reasons she's raised as a boy. Her gender identity remains female, which she intends to reclaim when she comes of age, but she's admitted to an elite military academy and has to maintain the facade, with increasing difficulties, for a lot longer -- especially when she becomes an ace mecha pilot. As of where I last read up to, she was still at the academy assembling a core group of right-hand guys, some of whom were flagged as growing into members of a reverse harem.

The genre is SF/xianxia with mecha.

Date: 2021-11-17 03:53 pm (UTC)
movingfinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] movingfinger
We shall cherish a hope that celebrity giant robot weddings become a trope and show up in every possible context and also in places where there is no call for them except "it's traditional."

Date: 2021-11-17 05:20 pm (UTC)
chestnut_pod: A close-up photograph of my auburn hair in a French braid (Default)
From: [personal profile] chestnut_pod
Thanks as ever for your careful reviews! I think I'm not the target audience for most speculative YA published these days, so I've made a vow to spare myself irritation by not reading these buzzy new YA fantasies anymore until they've been thoroughly vetted by people whose taste I trust. So thank you for being part of that process!

I am pleased that something that sounds like such a bisexual premise is getting read so widely!
Edited Date: 2021-11-17 05:20 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-11-17 05:23 pm (UTC)
schneefink: River walking among trees, from "Safe" (Default)
From: [personal profile] schneefink
I just finished this two hours ago! I enjoyed it, but not quite as much as I had hoped, and I'm not entirely sure why yet. The pacing, partially, though maybe that's because I've mostly read fic recently and got used to relationships having more time to develop.

Wu Zetian doesn't really have a character arc so much as a march of destruction
Hah, yes, accurate.

[A short pause here to represent the moment when [personal profile] genarti reminds me that not all mechs are Gundams. Beth, I hear you, and I acknowledge you.]
I too called them Gundams immediately, then thought that since they need two people as pilots I should rather compare them to the robots from Pacific Rim but magical; but the simple fact that it took me a few seconds to recall what the robots from Pacific Rim were even called made me change my mind again, Gundams it is.

Date: 2021-11-17 06:36 pm (UTC)
whimsyful: arang_1 (Default)
From: [personal profile] whimsyful
Thanks for reading this! I've been hearing a lot of buzz about this book but was iffy because one of my friends read it and had the same "where did Wu Zetian's 21st century feminism sprout from" reaction. It's really disappointing to hear about the lack of other prominent female characters, not least because there were some really interesting women from that period (Shangguan Wan'er was mentioned above, and also Princess Pingyang, Princess Taiping and Empress Dowager Wei. Yes I know the timing doesn't quite work but the author already inserted Li Shimin into this so.) The giant robot wedding sounds amazing though!

Date: 2021-11-17 09:24 pm (UTC)
accipiterf1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] accipiterf1
Oh, clearly not Gundams. Gundam veers more towards real-robot anime, much more technologically based depending on exactly which of the now myriad of Gundam series we are talking about. No, this is much more in the hero robot oeuvre, with transformations and powerups, like Voltron, GaoGaiGar, or the closest comparison I can think of, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. And I think the more a person has a personal connection what I just wrote there, the more one is likely to enjoy the imagery conveyed in the writing in Iron Widow. Though that said, as much as I enjoyed those aspects, and Zeitan's commitment to raging against the misogynist machine, so much of the rest of the book felt thin, so in the end it was just a three star read for me.

Date: 2021-11-19 02:23 am (UTC)
genarti: ([gw] guys this is SRS BSNS)
From: [personal profile] genarti
Right yes!! I love a Gundam, but they're a fundamentally different kind of giant robot in terms of the logistics and metaphors! Which is sputtering Becca has heard many and many a time (thank you for the parenthetical acknowledgement of my stifled gesticulation, Becca, I appreciate it), although I do understand that Gundam is a catchy term easily understood by people who do not care that much about the various subgenres of giant robot.

Anyway, I shared a lot of Becca's mixed feelings about Wu Zetian's rage/revenge rampage and the lack of actual women as characters and so on, not to mention the wild left turn of the ending, but I did really enjoy all the mecha piloting and dramatically aesthetic mecha imagery.

Date: 2021-11-29 08:26 pm (UTC)
sovay: (I Claudius)
From: [personal profile] sovay
not to mention the wild left turn of the ending

What is the wild left turn of the ending?

Date: 2021-12-12 04:58 am (UTC)
genarti: ([gw] *KEYBOARDMASH*)
From: [personal profile] genarti
Spoilers ahoy:

Fb, guvf gnxrf cynpr ba n cynarg orfrg ol na nyvra fcrpvrf pnyyrq gur Uhaqha; uhznaf svtug gurz va gurfr zrpun, naq nyfb hfr gurve pnencnprf gb ohvyq gurve zrpun. Jh Mrgvna'f snzvyl'f ubzrynaq jnf ybfg gb gur Uhaqha ybat ntb, yrtraqnel urebrf onggyrq gurz, rgp. Nyfb, gurer ner zlfgrevbhf tbqf hc va gur fxl fbzrjurer, jub gnxr gevohgr bs Uhaqha pnencnprf naq bgure fhccyvrf naq lbhat jbzra naq fb sbegu, naq tenag grpuabybtl naq oyhrcevagf naq fghss, fbzrgvzrf, ng gurve juvz.

Bire gur pbhefr bs gur obbx, gurer ner tenqhnyyl ohvyg-hc uvagf gung znlor gur Uhaqha qvqa'g fgneg guvf jne; znlor gur uhznaf vainqrq gur Uhaqha'f ynaq, naq ner npghnyyl gur pbybavmref/vainqref urer.

Ng gur raq bs gur obbx, gurl znxr n znffvir nggnpx ba gur Uhaqha, juvpu vvep Jh Mrgvna rg ny ner ntnvafg ohg cbyvgvpnyyl znarhirerq vagb orvat cneg bs. Pbaivpg-oblsevraq trgf xvyyrq va onggyr naq Jh Mrgvna tbrf ba n znffvir entr-shryrq enzcntr ntnvafg obgu Uhaqhaf naq nyyvrf jub'ir orgenlrq ure, vapyhqvat jnxvat hc n yrtraqnel ureb sebz fgnfvf gb cnegare jvgu uvz sbe shegure enzcntvat. Naq gura! Va gur ynfg, yvxr, guerr cntrf! Vg gheaf bhg gung guvf jnf qrsvavgryl bevtvanyyl gur Uhaqha'f cynarg! Uhznaf unir orra fynhtugrevat gurz sbe trarengvbaf naq gurl'er whfg gelvat gb qrsraq gurzfryirf! Nyfb gur tbqf ner uhznaf ba n fcnprfuvc! Gurl'ir orra jngpuvat bire rirelguvat nyy guvf gvzr naq znavchyngvat vg gb znxr fher gur jne naq gevohgr pbagvahr! Nyfb nyfb, pbaivpg-oblsevraq vf nyvir naq ba uvtu-grpu yvsr fhccbeg hc ba gurve fcnprfuvc, naq gurl'yy xvyy uvz vs fur gryyf nalbar nobhg nal bs guvf! BXNL RAQ OLR, QVQ JR ZRAGVBA GURER'YY OR N FRDHRY. (V unq abg, va snpg, ernyvmrq gung guvf jnf abg n fgnaqnybar, be ng yrnfg n fgnaqnybar jvgu frdhry cbgragvny, ng nal cbvag orsber gur ynfg cntr.)

Date: 2021-12-12 05:51 am (UTC)
sovay: (What the hell ass balls?!)
From: [personal profile] sovay
BXNL RAQ OLR, QVQ JR ZRAGVBA GURER'YY OR N FRDHRY.

Whaha!

At least when you start The Riddle-Master of Hed, it tells you it's the first of a trilogy.

Date: 2021-11-17 10:21 pm (UTC)
ceitfianna: (Jane thoughts consume me)
From: [personal profile] ceitfianna
I found this one of those books that felt like it was full of many ideas and not many people. Lots of great set pieces and some good moments and imagery but it didn't hold together. I follow the author on social media and she's got great energy and all, but I think as an author, she has more to learn.

I zipped through the first part then had to convince myself to finish it as I didn't really care. I found reading through the Goodreads' reviews fascinating to see the division and this would be a great book for a book club.

Date: 2021-11-18 01:53 am (UTC)
evewithanapple: joo-ran and yeon-duk look towards the sea | <lj user="evewithanapple"</lj> (silenced | the day you face the tide)
From: [personal profile] evewithanapple
I follow the author on social media and she's got great energy and all, but I think as an author, she has more to learn.

I wonder if that's an increasingly common thing nowadays? A lot of YA authors seem to come up on social media (I think Chloe Gong also credited her TikTok as being instrumental in her publication journey) and it seems like maybe the virality to bestseller pipeline means that authors miss the development period that they might have had otherwise.

Date: 2021-11-18 12:32 am (UTC)
issenllo: strawberry thief print from William Morris (Default)
From: [personal profile] issenllo
It was Gundams for me too lol.

Too bad, so sad, but women's lives in this society are so little valued that nobody actually sees this as a problem to be solved

That struck me roughly one-third through the book. And it is just so full of "all women are bullied" - and even if it is meant to depict an extremely patriarchal and sexist society, I'd expect to see a few descriptions of some pushback (other than from the protagonist). So that part got a bit tiresome, but luckily there's more mecha to take my mind off it.

There is very much a form of feminism that looks like this, in which women in the abstract are worthy of respect, and women in the individual are a disappointment.

Yup, that happened. Only the dead sister is saintly.

Still, I enjoyed the book a lot, even the parts that I felt were tropey and I'd be very interested in the sequel.

Date: 2021-11-18 09:47 pm (UTC)
dimestore_romeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dimestore_romeo
I really enjoyed this one but definitely see why you didn't! I think I loved the fact that it was like reading the equivalent of a late 90s anime on fastforward (not a manga but literally like Gundam/Evangelion/Bubblegum Crisis etc etc), aesthetics and high drama and all - whenever Wu Zeitan chose not to forgive someone and basically stomped them to death with her giant robot, I just thought "how refreshing!" hahaha. Super indulgent and loved the triangular OT3 and general...anger of it all.
Edited Date: 2021-11-18 09:49 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-11-28 10:23 pm (UTC)
pseudo_tsuga: ([Gintama] Queen of the Mountain)
From: [personal profile] pseudo_tsuga
genarti reminds me that not all mechs are Gundams. Beth, I hear you, and I acknowledge you.]

She is CORRECT and I am appalled you would make this egregious error

I did enjoy the lovingly described celebrity giant robot wedding, though.

Getting images of Jupiter Ascending in my head.


It's sad there's no other women in this book because we have so many examples of intelligent women navigating the patriarchy to amass power without being in an explicitly powerful role. Heck, the harem politics are a whole genre in Chinese fiction that just follow the women scheming and trying to get on top. I would've loved to have seen that applied to this book without just Women Suffering All The Time if they're not a badass pilot. I'm still intrigued enough to get it from the library as I am easily swayed buy big robots punching each other, cool set pieces, and vengeance.
Edited (so many typos) Date: 2021-11-28 10:24 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-12-27 01:52 pm (UTC)
happydork: A graph-theoretic tree in the shape of a dog, with the caption "Tree (with bark)" (Default)
From: [personal profile] happydork
Oh, this is fascinating! (Hi, I'm going back through your booklogging tag for recs, and I hadn't read Iron Widow when you posted this review but I have now.)

Your criticisms are so fascinating, because I definitely found them a feature rather than a bug. There's a line in there about Wu Zetian's bisexuality where she says something like she's admired both women and men, and I was just like, lol, no, you have literally never admired a woman in your life. But for me that alienation was part of what makes her so compelling, and what made the bleakness of her rage so easy to buy into.

I think it also helped that I wasn't sold this as a feminism book, and while reading it, it didn't occur to me that she was fighting the patriarchy -- I think I would have been disappointed if that was what I was hoping for. I mean, don't get me wrong, I noticed there was violent structural sexism! I just saw it as WZT vs EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING FUCK YOU against a background of patriarchy, rather than WZT vs patriarchy in particular.

Date: 2022-01-06 05:36 pm (UTC)
glitteryv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glitteryv
What a fascinating review!

As someone for whom the following is true

For the people I know who loved this book, the spectacle of Wu Zetian demolishing her way through her enemies and wreaking revenge on anyone who ever wronged her and also the patriarchy struck a deep and satisfying chord.

I am 200% in agreement. It most deffo was INCREDIBLY SATISFYING to see Wu Zetian channel her anger into actions. NGL, I did approached the book with a lot of wariness because it'd been so hyped on BookTwitter and, most of the time, that kind of OTTness usually means that the book won't click to me.

That said, yeah, the feminism in the book was almost-but-not-completely-there. I do remember wondering where were Wu Zetian's female friends and why she wasn't interacting with many women in the story. OTOH, I think that, at the time, I know I rationalized it as "she's so focused on her mission, she doesn't have time to make friends". Which looking back is on me for not questioning that deeper.

If anything, the one thing that did niggled at me was the YA angle. It wasn't until after I finished the book that I'd learned it'd originally been an adult novel. NGL, I'm upset that the author decided to give it a YA spin.

Anyways, thank you once again for the review. It's really good to see what didn't work for others for what was my fave 2021 book. :D

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