skygiants | (no subject)

I have a more-or-less weekly c/ or k/drama night with

tenillypo, around the edges of which we usually take time to tell each other about what other stuff we've been watching solo.

T: [finishing her description of her current show] ... and so the villain gave the heroine a cat that turned out to have a listening device implanted in it so he could spy on her!
ME: I feel like I watched a cdrama that I ought to tell you about but I'm sure I didn't ... why do I feel like I did ...?
ME [one episode of a different show later]: Oh it's because I finished reading 'She Who Became The Sun'!

She Who Became The Sun really does feel like an entire forty-episode cdrama in a single book, and for the most part I ate it up. The main story follows an unwanted daughter who hears a fortune-teller prophesy a tremendous and important fate for her older brother Zhu Chongba and nothing for herself -- and then, after watching him succumb to famine and depression, decides to spend her life impersonating him to the world and also the heavens and steal his fate for her own. Zhu Chongba ends up first in a monastery and then in the middle of the Red Turban Rebellion, using wits, determination and ambition to rise to power as a ruthless trickster antihero. Everything about Zhu's defiant struggle to rules-lawyer the gods into delivering on the fate promised to the original Zhu Chongba is very much the poison for Becca, Becca's poison, and I hugely enjoyed it.

The parallel plot focuses on General Ouyang, Zhu's occasional enemy and narrative foil, a eunuch from a murdered Han Chinese family who has risen to military power among the current Mongolian overlords of the country but secretly dreams of revenge against them despite his very strong personal feelings about the Mongolian heir who loves and trusts him. A lot of the reviews I've seen seemed to find this storyline more compelling than Zhu's but I personally did not enjoy it nearly as much; I understand and appreciate why the narrative spent so much time with General Ouyang's internalized misogyny but I personally did not have a great time experiencing it, and his main relationship was such a clearly signaled trainwreck that the actual wreck didn't hit me all that hard after watching the train chug unswervingly down the self-destruction rail to tragedy junction over 400 pages. However, all that does work very well as a parallel to Zhu, and I appreciated the way the book revolves around their mirror-reflections of each other and their very different but equally messy relationships with gender and masculinity and power and fate; technically speaking it's just very cool as a way to structure a narrative.

(There's also a whole other set of interesting things to be said about Ouyang and his own secondary narrative foil, the half-Han younger Mongolian prince, and their respective relationships to the two cultures in between which they're caught, but they're all so extremely tangled up in the historical presence of the Mongolians as Imperial conquerers and the contemporary portrayal of non-Han characters in a lot of mainland Chinese media and the book's existence as an English-language Chinese diaspora work that as a person with only the shallowest of knowledge of any of these things I wouldn't even know where to start. I am glad to have read this Tor.com article about language, culture and diaspora in the novel, though.)

One of the things I actually found really fascinating is the way that fate, specifically, is literalized in the book through ghosts and the flame of divine mandates of power. The word 'fate' appears 75 times in the text; the word 'duty' appears only ten, and most times in context of someone who has already rejected or is in the process of rejecting it. Ouyang's self-appointed task of revenge for his family is described as a filial duty -- something that one feels as a responsibility but can choose to fulfill or disappoint -- only once in the whole book. The rest of the time, the task is simply his fate, something which he is Going to do, which he feels he has no choice about doing. On this particular perception of Ouyang's the book turns.

I really loved the way the book handles fate, and the way, especially, that Zhu ends up engaging with it hits a lot of my narrative buttons. But I do think the broad absence of the concept of duty -- of duty, specifically, as a responsibility towards others-as-others rather than towards destiny-as-destiny -- and the way that gets entirely subsumed into the protagonists' relationship with fate is really interesting. It makes a clear point within the text, but I did occasionally miss its presence.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

sovay

decides to spend her life impersonating him to the world and also the heavens and steal his fate for her own.

I am fascinated by what that implies about the metaphysics of this world; I'm not sure it should make me think of "The Sage of Theare."

From:

skygiants

A lot of Zhu's internal conflict & stress is driven by the sense that any move that reflects skills that the original Zhu Chongba wouldn't have had (the women's work of weaving, for example) or decisions that the original wouldn't have made (such as noticing and taking advantage of a widow's desire to lead her community, rather than turning over her town to a foreign commander) draws extra and unwanted attention from the heavens -- the extra attention is definitely true within the metaphysics of the world, the results may not be as expected. (I'm not sure you shouldn't think about the Sage of Theare, but the overall result is quite different!)

From:

ninjapenguin

Oh wow, this sounds so much like Basara. I'm going to have to check it out.

From:

skygiants

Yeah, I was definitely also reminded of Basara in the original setup, although the tone and emotional themes are quite different!

From:

qian

the historical presence of the Mongolians as Imperial conquerers and the contemporary portrayal of non-Han characters in a lot of mainland Chinese media and the book's existence as an English-language Chinese diaspora work that as a person with only the shallowest of knowledge of any of these things I wouldn't even know where to start

I don't know enough about these things to talk about them either, but I would really love to read a discussion of race/ethnicity in the book by someone who DOES.

My reaction to the two protags of the book was quite similar to yours, in that I LOVED Zhu's storyline and found Ouyang's enjoyable to follow but wasn't as emotionally invested in it. (I did think, "Wow, this is fandom catnip" and I was right!)

The point about fate vs duty hadn't struck me but you're so right and that's really interesting!

From:

skygiants

SAME, I very badly want to read a knowledgeable essay about it!

Zhu's storyline was to me, as I said to another friend, as mistletoe to Baldur, a weapon aimed directly at me and my interests! But also there were several turns that plotline took that I didn't call and wouldn't have thought to -- not that surprise is always necessarily a virtue in a book but in this case I generally enjoyed the surprises quite a bit. (lol it's SUCH fandom catnip, I will be astounded if there aren't a dozen fics next Yuletide.)

It feels more pointedly absent in Ouyang's storyline the more I think about it tbh, like, the ghosts that Ouyang owes the duty to are there but he straight up can't see them!

From:

shadaras

Wang Baoxing's existence is, truly, the reason I loved Ouyang's side of things so much. xD His incredible competence in a field that the culture he's expected to live up to doesn't respect at all is very enjoyable to read about even though it's so backgrounded because Ouyang is too busy being a mess of self-hating feelings about the revenge he needs.

Zhu's whole gender deal is so much fun. Especially once she gets together with Ma!

The thing about She Who Became the Sun that I find most interesting, in a lot of ways, is that it's not a standalone. The fact of a sequel changes the vibes (not in a bad way! just. noticeably.), and I in no way realised it wasn't stand-alone until I'd finished it.

From:

skygiants

I also had no idea that it was a duology until after I finished it -- I think by the time I was 3/4 to the end I was starting to squint at the book like "ARE you a trilogy? this doesn't seem wrappable in the time we've got!" -- and I think you're right that it changes the energy and trajectory of the book tremendously. Especially with reference to Wang, tbh, who radiates "I am going to be a major player and turning point in the sequel" energy throughout the text!

From:

kore

This book sounds awesome, but also "watching the train chug unswervingly down the self-destruction rail to tragedy junction over 400 pages" had me chuckling for a good five minutes.

From:

skygiants

It's very clearly signposted! Someone comes down the corridor approximately every five pages shouting "TRAGEDY JUNCTION, TRAGEDY JUNCTION NEXT STOP!"

From:

chestnut_pod

YAY, She Who Became the Sun, winner of Best Pun Title and also my favorite novel of 2021! So so glad you liked it.

I just love Zhu's genderific journey so much. So much!

Your thoughts about duty vs. fate are very enjoyable -- it makes me think about Ma, honestly, and her position as Zhu's other foil. Tricky family stuff as interwoven with duty -- but not very much about duty as responsibility to people outside one's immediate ambit.

(Unrelatedly, was the… bugged cat… okay??)

From:

skygiants

Yeah, doing the full-text search for the word was really interesting because almost all of the few references to duty do come in relation to Ma, and they're all sort of abstract and very negative -- mostly in context of Zhu asking Ma what she wants out of life, and Ma thinking dolefully about what her duty will be, once she's married, and how much she thinks she will not want to do it [in the future]. Whereas the things that Ma actually does in the present-time of the book -- like asking Zhu to save her useless first fiance -- are not generally framed as a duty that she is fulfilling in the here-and-now, but rather the result of Ma's kind heart, something intrinsic to her nature, that she wants to do because she doesn't wish to see anyone get hurt. Which, within the book, is a positive and something we're supposed to admire her for, while adherence to duty is pretty universally a negative, something only Ma among the whole cast ever really thinks about doing and that in negative terms.

...and given all that, I think there is a really interesting question about why Ma stays with Zhu at the end, and whether that's personal feelings winning over duty [which would be to leave because Zhu's actions are against Ma's ethics] or duty [to stay and try and guide Zhu's actions towards the less bloodthirsty] over personal feelings [of being horrified and angry about Zhu'x actions]! I could see it either way and I'm curious how it will be framed in the next book.

In other news, the bugged cat was okay but I do not actually know whether the bug was ever removed, I will have to ask T next time I see her!

From:

larryhammer

:insta-hold with library:

From:

skygiants

I hope you enjoy it! :D

From:

pseudo_tsuga

As someone noted above, it's so similar to Basara that I have to give it a shot. I'm also hopeful for all of the complicated and twisty relationships.

From:

skygiants

The way it plays out is quite different to Basara but there are definite similarities! (I got bogged down in my Basara reread because my library has a big gap where several volumes should be, but I really have to get back to it...)

From:

lirazel

his main relationship was such a clearly signaled trainwreck that the actual wreck didn't hit me all that hard after watching the train chug unswervingly down the self-destruction rail to tragedy junction over 400 pages.

Agreed. It was so obviously going to happen that it didn't have much narrative oomph. Also Esen himself didn't really feel that compelling--Ouyang was at least interesting, even though the misogyny was rough.

However, all that does work very well as a parallel to Zhu, and I appreciated the way the book revolves around their mirror-reflections of each other and their very different but equally messy relationships with gender and masculinity and power and fate; technically speaking it's just very cool as a way to structure a narrative.

I really like how you put this.

I really love Ouyang and Lord Wang and all their stuff related to their cultures and their ways of being men within those cultures, but yeah, I can't talk about it with anything like depth. It was SO GOOD though!

But I do think the broad absence of the concept of duty -- of duty, specifically, as a responsibility towards others-as-others rather than towards destiny-as-destiny -- and the way that gets entirely subsumed into the protagonists' relationship with fate is really interesting.

I hadn't really thought about this, but now that you point it out, I won't be able to stop thinking about it.

From:

skygiants

Yeah, Esen felt a bit more like the outlines of a necessary figure for Ouyang to project on and to build the shape of the tragedy around than a complex person in his own right who could, like, make unexpected decisions in his own right: literally no decision that he makes or could make matters to the endgame in any way. In contrast to Ma on the other side, who makes several significant decisions that impact the story in major ways! But then Wang is really more of a parallel to Ma than Esen is, in terms of the actual roles they play as secondary foils.

It is fascinating to me that like -- the ghosts are right there, but they also only function as an indicator of fate and its workings, they're never people to whom duty might be owed. Everyone feels the weight of the ghosts but no one's afraid of disappointing them!

From:

starlady

Ouyang as exploration and explosion of the tropes about eunuchs was fascinating, but also painful to read. That said I am scratching my head at finding his storyline more interesting than Zhu's: just for starters he's obviously doomed from the start.

It was such a good book, though. I'm very interested to see where the next one goes.

From:

sophia_sol

I think I might not have been as invested in Ouyang's story on its own, but the ways in which Ouyang and Zhu's stories intersected both thematically and ....actually intersecting.......meant that his stuff still really really worked for me. The two stories played off of each other to show off stuff that was being engaged with in the other. Which is SO good and the way this kind of double-protagonist story really ought to work imo, but plenty of authors aren't able to manage!

It is really funny though how obvious it is that Ouyang's story is the fanbait half of the book, now that you point it out, but I would never have noticed because I was too busy going mad over the relationship between Zhu and Ma!!