(no subject)

[skygiants]

I have just finished today Ann Leckie's Translation State, which I found a quick and easy read with quite a lot to like and also quite a lot that -- for me at least -- a bit dissatisfying.

There are three main plot threads in this one. The first focuses on a meek middle-aged caretaker whose rich and unpleasant relative has just died, sending hir out for the first time into the universe with independent means; the second involves a young man of unknown parentage who has just been claimed by a diasporic minority as a long-lost descendant of their long-lost ruling family; and the third is about a young Presger Translator who does not wish to comply with familial plans involving a pre-arranged merging of identity into another Presger Translator.

It's fun to see more expansions of this universe; it's fun to see Leckie play around with various complexities of cultural identity and interstellar politics, and it's also quite fun to see Leckie have a good time taking a lot of classic Victorian Novel of Manners tropes (the unpleasant and rich relative! the long-lost heir! the arranged marriage problem!) and reframing them through her own science-fictional setting.

I was enjoying all these plots until they started coming together, in ways that should, naturally, have involved interesting friction between characters and never quite seemed to do so. Everyone that we're expected to like in this book likes each other so immediately -- they meet for a chapter in which they regard each other with suspicion, and by the next chapter they've decided this person is lovely and they really like them very much so that the plot can move onto its next beat. We're told by the text that some of these characters are genuinely odd and uncomfortable be around and have always had trouble forming connections with others, but you'd never know it! I think that Leckie wants the Presger Translators to be unnerving and unsettling, but I never for a moment thought that our Nice Young Presger Couple were ever going to do anything to harm anybody we or they liked that would get in the way of their marriage-plot ending, which sort of took the teeth out of it a little bit.

'Let people dislike people' is not something I usually think of Leckie having problems with, but there is quite a lot of plot in this book, and several different places and factions to worldbuild, and it does feel like the character dynamics took the backseat here.

Or, entirely possibly, it's a me problem, and I just don't fully click with a Leckie book unless one of the protagonists is dedicated to being really passive aggressive.

Comments

[sovay]

Or, entirely possibly, it's a me problem, and I just don't fully click with a Leckie book unless one of the protagonists is dedicated to being really passive aggressive.

It may not be a you problem. One acquires certain expectations from introductory lines like "Sit up straight, Dlique. Don't dismember your sister, Dlique, it isn't nice. Internal organs belong inside your body, Dlique."

[edit] You are not the only person on my friendlist from whom I have received the impression that Translation State is a bizarrely cozy book, which has so far inclined me away from picking it up and forming an opinion for myself.

[skygiants]

And it's not that this book doesn't engage with those introductory lines -- they are addressed! there is dismemberment! internal organs do become external! -- and it's not like I don't think there's a way to have fun with the juxtaposition of those expectations onto the novel-of-manners plot (c.f. that Jo Walton book where they're all dragons) but it is simply true that I was not as unsettled as I expected to be ....

[sovay]

but it is simply true that I was not as unsettled as I expected to be ....

I wasn't even expecting to be unsettled! I was expecting a level of alienness that couldn't be done and dusted with two-minute conversations or a chapter's worth of misunderstanding!

[starlady]

I came away deeply unsettled by the Presger, and by the adult Translators who aren't trying to escape the system. I feel like most of the friction is provided by the Rad'chaai Ambassador and her crew of QAnon equivalent malcontents, which I enjoyed. I liked it a lot but it needed more Dlique.

[skygiants]

Yeah, the Rad'chaai ambassador is definitely there to Introduce Conflict and (as always with the Rad'chaai) does an excellent job of that!

[sholio]

Yeeeeeup. I posted about it here, but basically I had the same problem. It started off promising some really interesting edges and conflicts, but then everyone turns out to be blandly nice and perfectly understanding and every interpersonal conflict was resolved with a 2-minute conversation. I think this is at least partly an issue with me wanting to read a different book than Leckie wanted to write, but after really looking forward to this one because it was going to explore the Presger Translators, I found it a huge letdown.

[skygiants]

Thank you for linking, I was trying to remember whose other review I had seen talking about this! The thing that really threw me the most honestly was that gur snpg gung Errg'f crefrphgrq-zvabevgl Tbbq Cneragf nera'g rira n yvggyr ovg znq ng Ranv sbe orvat gur crefba jub tbg gurve fba xvqanccrq ol gur fgngr?? Surely this is the kind of thing one would have some lingering emotions around?

[asakiyume]

I have seen an interesting constellation of reactions to this! Really looking forward to seeing how I end up feeling about it.

Something someone else said elsewhere made me worry that the Presger were going to be reduced to a more comprehensible sort of alien, which is always a risk and a problem when you get too close to something. I don't want the Presger to be reduced to just they-want-to-eat-you. But anyway! Will have to see how it goes.

[sgac]

The Presger do not appear in the book and are not discussed. The Presger translators do become more comprehensible - many of the peculiarities of Dlique and Zeiat make more sense once we understand the lifecycle of the translators, though there's also a retcon element at work. Presger technology and abilities remain lovecraftian, or at least non-euclidean.

[asakiyume]

Ah, okay, thank you!

I adored Zeiat; what a tremendous character. But I think I can handle translators becoming more comprehensible.

[skygiants]

I"m looking forward to seeing your reaction too! I definitely don't think the Presger got reduced to just they-want-to-eat-you; I do think that Leckie had fun working through elements of a Presger Translator Society in ways that make them more like a classic sfnal exploration of What If Alien Biology Worked Like This than the absolute enigmas that they are in the original trilogy, with associated pros and cons.

[genarti]

Yeah, I really don't think of Leckie as being one of those authors who's bad at letting characters dislike and clash with each other! Fascinating to hear that this was a problem with this one.

As you know, I bounced off the Presger Translators in Ancillary Mercy, a book I otherwise loved -- I felt she wanted me to find them unnerving and unsettling and alien there too, but it just came off to me as Lol Look At This Quirky(tm) Alien Who's So Wacky!! -- so I've been both holding off on Translation State, and very curious what I'll think of it. So this is useful info. I do like the idea of watching Leckie have fun playing around with classic 19th century tropes in her sf world, at least, even if it doesn't quite all come together!

[littledust]

I was not aware that we had the same impression of the Presger! Or maybe I was, and forgot. 😂 The wackiness definitely felt like a tonal mismatch to me.

Anyway, I enjoy this 'verse a lot, so I will put this book on the docket! I suspect I will enjoy it more now that I know the few things I should brace myself for. (I am not a fan of abandoning all interesting character clashes so that Everyone Gets Along...)

[genarti]

Same hat!! I also was not aware of this!

To be honest, I don't think I've read anyone else having the same impression of the Presger Translators; I assumed there were others that did, because one is never the only one, but also that I was apparently an outlier. So it's pleasing to run into a friend who did, even if we're outliers together.

[skygiants]

I'm looking forward to your thoughts too! I do think the Presger Translators come out of this one feeling a bit less Wacky and more like they exist in an actual society.

[skygiants]

I am REALLY looking forward to hearing what you think about this one when you get around to it!

[mme_n_b]

You're right, it is pretty instantly obvious that no one in this book is "ever going to do anything to harm anybody we or they liked" (deliberately).

I'm a bad reader in that I read for the characters first, plot second, and craft a distant third, so for me this is a benefit. This same quality is why I like Bujold, and why I pre-order and endlessly re-read books by Katherine Addison and not books by Sarah Monette.

It takes a specific kind of bravery to re-read or even clearly remember a well-written book after the author had one likeable character hurt another on purpose and/or without a restoration.

[skygiants]

I'm glad you had a good time with this one!

[sandrylene]

This makes me think I should ask you for book recs, as I am the same type of bad reader. XD

[mme_n_b]

Thank you, I'm flattered. Do you mind if I answer after Oct. 1st? I'm traveling and typing a list on the phone is a pain.
And I would love some recommendations as well :)

[sandrylene]

Good heavens, of course! And yes - typing on a phone would indeed be a pain!

I have a spreadsheet of what I've read by year and marks for how much I liked it, so I'm going to start off that, and apologize if this is ridiculous. I mostly read SFF, so lots of this is that.

My favorites I've read in the last five years have been these:
Ann Leckie Ancillary series
Arkady Martine A Memory Called Empire
Becky Chambers Wayfarers series
Becky Chambers Monk and Robot series
C.L. Polk Even Though I Knew the End
Erin Morgenstern The Night Circus
Foz Meadows A Strange and Stubborn Endurance
Kate Racculia Tuesday Mooney Talks to Ghosts (not SFF)
Louise Penny Inspector Gamache series (mystery, not SFF)
Matt Haig The Midnight Library
Naomi Novik Scholomance series
Neal Stephenson Fall; or Dodge in Hell
Olivia Atwater Half a Soul
Richard Osman Thursday Murder Club series (mystery, not SFF)
Robert Jackson Bennett Foundryside series
Robin Sloan Mr. Penumbra's 24-Hour Bookstore
Ryka Aoki Light from Uncommon Stars
Ted Chiang Exhalation: Stories

If too many of these are "I've read that" because a lot of them are quite popular/obvious, I'm happy to pull out level two of next most loved. XD

I have opinions as well about which of these are only good because I like the characters so much versus which are legitimately good, but I'm also not even sure if I'm correct, anyhow. XD

[mme_n_b]

You are so awesomely organized!!!
We match on 4.5/18 :))) Would've been 5.5, but Scholomance is the only series by Novik I didn't like (because cruelty to children riles up my hormone-altered brain).

[sandrylene]

This is very fair! The idea that everyone within that world is okay with putting their children in a sort of metaphorical meat grinder merely because its setting on grind speed is somewhat lower... yikes. As a premise, it's hard to accept that people are or would really be like that.

[mme_n_b]

Sorry for the delay!
During it, it occurred to me that Temeraire(and 19th/early 20th century written Britain in general) is in fact a world in which everyone (or, at least, everyone I've read about)is ok with putting their children into the meat grinder. There is a corner in a far-off land that is forever England über alles and all that.

As far as book recommendations - have you tried Victoria Goddard? She has a Mariana Trench-like commitment to happy endings. In the Lays of the Hearth-Fire series she starts with a main character who is unhappy with his (immense) achievements in creating a just world through government bureaucracy. Then she gives him a just world. And appreciation from people who matter most. And friendship. And adventure. And love. And appreciation from an inarguable authority. And return of precious people. And then, because that isn't enough, she brings his younger self back through time and does it all over again. And then she puts him into an alternate universe and just keeps heaping the happy on his head. It's wonderful. I think I'm on page 5,000,008 of the series and I plan to keep on buying whatever she writes. She does have a weakness for Ayn Rand-style monologues, but it's tolerable in context, and Hands of the Emperor strongly affected the way I see Native American art.

I also like Katherine Addison at a preorder-everything-in-hardback level because her main characters are deeply decent people (and the books are exciting and well-written, but that's less rare). Her alter ego is Sarah Monette - I tried reading those books and dislike them deeply, but they are good.

Aliette de Bodard's Servant of the Underworld series is one of my favorites for much the same reasons - the main character is decent and honorable, the plot is tight and exciting and the world is well-written and well-thought-out and completely alien to me.

Caimh McDonnell writes "strong violent men you'd actually not be afraid to be in the same room with" (also deeply decent and deeply flawed) as detective stories and as supernatural stories. Unexpectedly, both types are tightly plotted and the dialogue is hilarious. I prefer the detective series, because Ireland is more alien to me than the supernatural, but that's a function of my reading habits and preferences - they are both good, and the supernatural series has more Pratchett allusions.

T. Kingfisher writes great children's books as Ursula Vernon and lovely fantasy adventure novels (Clockwork Boys world) for adults. She's great at building a world that transcends one book and creating likeable secondary characters, her plots are unpredictable, and her characters are, you guessed it - decent. They spend a lot of time thinking about how unworthy they are of each other. About 30% through the book they spend a page or so establishing consent, and then have very consensual and respectful sex. Then they re-check consent, talk about how unworthy they are of each other, reassure each other, and get on with the plot. It's nice. Outside of the Clockwork universe she writes truly scary horror and somewhat-scary fairytales. Everything she writes, including YA books, is really worth reading.

Sarah Gailey is always fun in a whirlwind, "wait, where did that bullet come from and where did the saloon door go?" fashion. Also, there are hippos.

Nghi Vo's Singing Hills cycle has decent people _and_ birds, a rich world, unpredictable plots, and multiple happy endings mostly based on achieving greater understanding of one's self. Her other books are not my cup of tea, but the writing quality never fails.

Dia Reeves does exciting dark vampire romance adventure for Black teenagers and does it well.

Naturally there are the obvious re-reads: Bujold, Kowal, Christopher Moore, Megan Whalen Turner - but I suspect you already read those :))))

Real-world books I liked last year are Educated by Tara Westover, Salt Path by Raynor Winn (yes, I do take a few years to get around to books), and Soonish by the Weinersmiths.

[sandrylene]

As far as book recommendations - have you tried Victoria Goddard?
Bwahahaha, I have read 22 of her books/novellas since July when I randomly found Stargazy Pie from *someone's* rec, I have no idea where exactly. I think I have one last book of hers to read, which is probably going to be something I do this month. She's this year's binge author of the year. XD And yes, strongly agree that I'll be looking to buy whatever she does next.

I have as yet only read The Goblin Emperor (and in fact just within the last week or so), and had no idea she had another alias, so will have to look that up and see what I think of them - thanks for the info!

DeBodard, I'd tried the Dominion of the Fallen, which I like fine, but not head over heels for, but not Servant of the Underworld. I will have to give that a go!

Also very with you on Nghi Vo, T. Kingfisher/Ursula Vernon, and Bujold (though will admit to not really liking Miles that well, so I've ready basically everything that *isn't* Vorkosigan, but maybe only four novels in that universe). Anyhow, the extent of our overlap makes me very eager to add the ones I haven't encountered to my list! And several of these I hadn't even heard of, so that's very exciting. Thanks! :D

[mme_n_b]

You are the third person I know besides myself that likes Goddard. "The circle of these revolutionaries is narrow and they are terribly distanced from the common people" (V. Lenin) :))))) Does the increasing religiosity in the Greenwing & Dart series bother you?

[sandrylene]

Huh. No, if only because it doesn't immediately provoke to me any feeling of similarity to an existing religion, necessarily. A world in which you can interact with the gods to me is so immediately unrealistic that no matter what else occurs, generally, I'm parsing it as mythical or fantastical unless you really shove some parallel in my face.

But also in all of the nine worlds books it seems to be not one religion sort of enforced everywhere, but clearly varying ones, all of which are taken equally seriously by different peoples, and that sort of thing to me is always good/non-bothersome. If we got to a point of having crusades in the name of The Lady (or anyone else, really), I'd definitely be unhappy about it, but I don't think we're likely going in that direction.

[mme_n_b]

That's a good way of looking at it. I'm annoyed by the increased line count given to the Lady because I see these as "books about achieving a happy end of friendship and self-love through adventure" not "through religion". It's like those pasties Welsh miners used to get for lunch, that had meat in one end and jam in the other - disconcerting when unexpected.

[sandrylene]

Bwahahaha, this analogy is *amazing*. :D

It is an interesting point, though. The nine worlds books do seem to spend a lot of time with "well, how do we know our protagonists are right and good?" and the answer is "literal approval of mythical figures or deities." It's like a weird version of winning the argument of "am I a good person?" via appeal to authority.

But for all that, I enjoy the character and relationship-building so much that I don't mind, honestly!

[mme_n_b]

Oh be fair, it's not all mythical figures - sometimes the humble folk come out to the bushes and approve the characters as well ;) With all the time they spend receiving approval it's amazing any Goddard protagonists find time for the plot - and I like it this way.
In fact, early Greenwing and Dart books are probably perfect for angsty teenagers, given that the hero starts so typically miserable and convinced that everyone despises him and has that conviction carefully dismantled and replaced with a pleasant sense of self-worth :)

[mific]

For me it kind of felt like fanfiction of her usual works. A lot of canon beats, more exploration and worldbuilding based on and extending from prior canon, not quite acing the structure and characterisation, and a bit of overt fannishness with the murderbot media-watching stuff. I still enjoyed it, though.

[skygiants]

omg yeah the Murderbot media-watching stuff was extremely funny to me. Ann Leckie has observed what the people like and it is Representation Of How They Feel About Their Comfort TV Shows!

[slashmarks]

Yeah, you have neatly described what I found unsatisfying about this book. There were many situations where people should have been seriously (justifiably!) upset with each other or seriously, determinedly suspicious, etc, and were not.

[skygiants]

It really felt like Ranr nyregvat gur nhgubevgvrf gb Errg'f rkvfgrapr should have been a central beat for the character/relationship/emotional arcs, and instead ... it's a plot beat in that it moved everyone to the next phase, but it really has no emotional or relationship repercussions whatsoever, and I think the book from that point on feels less substantial as a result.

[vass]

I actually had a raging argument with someone elsewhere on the internet about whether [plot point in Translation State] retroactively lessened the impact of [plot point in one of the Ancillary trilogy books]. I loved Translation State, and it did work for me (far better than Provenance, actually), but I was the one arguing it did lessen the impact.

[sovay]

but I was the one arguing it did lessen the impact.

Since I don't care about spoilers (rot13 if necessary), may I ask what your argument was?

[vass]

I felt that the fact that Qyvdhr jnfa'g qrnq nsgre nyy va Napvyynel Fjbeq took some of the impact out of gur rhpngnfgebcur bs Napvyynel Zrepl.

[skygiants]

Honestly this does make me want to read the Ancillary trilogy again, because I've largely forgotten how I felt about the things that happened with the Presger Translators in those books and I do want to consider how the new context makes me feel about them.

[chestnut_pod]

Yes, well put! I thought throughout the read, wow, I can tell gur zneevntr cybg vf tbvat gb raq "unccvyl" jvgu n zretr, naq V whfg ubcr fur qbrfa'g znxr vg frrz crqrfgevna be yvxr abezny frk be jungrire jura fur qrcvpgf vg. Naq gura fur qvqa'g qrcvpg vg ng nyy! I felt quite let down.

That said, it was eminently readable, which I recognize as a skill. I guess every book can't be a home-run.

[skygiants]

YEAH. 400 pages of "guvf zvtug fgvyy or n yvggyr ovg obql ubeebe? Ab, fgvyy whfg n zneevntr cybg!" Abg gung vg VFA'G sha naq shaal gb qb n zneevntr cybg jvgu jrveq nyvra ovbybtl ohg vs lbh'er tbvat gb qb guvf gura lbh unir tbg gb pbzzvg gb yrggvat vg fgvyy srry nyvra naq ol gur raq vg ernyyl qvqa'g, gb zr.

But yes, certainly of all the books I've read this week I zipped through the Leckie the quickest, found the prose pleasant, etc.; even when her books aren't my favorite she always knows her way around a page.

[asakiyume]

felt the same way about the lack of reveal of that point. Especially since we had the traumatic experience so vividly!

[shati]

Thank you for saving me and Translation State from each other with this post. For holding a piece of cardboard between us as we eat our Meow Mix.

[skygiants]

I have Translation Instated the baby gate 😔

[superborb]

I found the book unsatisfying, but didn't really understand why, and reading this post I did go YEAH that's why!!

[skygiants]

There are so many interesting angles of friction and instead everyone just slides congenially right past each other!

[asakiyume]

Just finished it. To paraphrase Breq talking about Sievaarden at the beginning of Ancillary Justice, it's not one of my favorite Imperial Radch books. But it is an Imperial Radch-universe book, and I do like Ann Leckie. So I liked it... more or less. But found myself pretty impatient with lots of it ("Yes yes, I KNOW. You TOLD us this three times already."). Like you, I never felt for a minute that the Young Presger Translator Couple was going to hurt anyone or that they weren't going to end up together--so much so that all the attempts to draw out that latter bit were just frustrating to me, though I think from an opposite direction than you. You would (if I'm understanding ...) have preferred them to warm up to each other more slowly and with more real resistance (yes?) I was fine with none of that: I wanted them to openly explore the ultimate conclusion more directly, together (i.e., hey, so maybe this wouldn't be so bad, but if we do it, can we still pursue status as a human, etc.)

I'll post more thoughts on my own page in a bit.

[skygiants]

Honestly I would have been fine with either! A more slow warm-up that engaged in deep character work would have been more interesting, and a fast wrap-up that then allowed more exploration of what merging really means and what its consequences are for them would also have been more interesting, but the long slow dance towards an obvious endgame with no particular points of internal tension along the way other than the standard "alas! I like them but DO they like me??" sort of felt like the least compelling option either way.

[asakiyume]

Absolutely.