skygiants | (no subject)

I have to admit I was a little bit nervous, after my reaction to Men at Arms, about rereading Feet of Clay. Because Feet of Clay has always been one of my favorites, and what if I didn't love it?

Fortunately it turns out that I still feel totally okay loving Feet of Clay. Because DORFL and CHERI. I mean, other things too, but: DORFL and CHERI.

So let's talk first about Dorfl!

So the golem theme in this book is about freedom and humanity and is basically Discworld's chance to do the extremely beloved sci-fi theme of 'sentient robots! are they human? should they have rights? does using them . . . make us assholes . . .? WHAT ABOUT IF THEY ARE EVIL KILLER ROBOTS DO THEY STILL HAVE RIGHTS THEN?'

And I generally like the stories that go 'pretty much yes' to all these questions, and Discworld does not fail me here. Feet of Clay is I think really the book that drives home how important it is, and how important it is to Vimes, that people are thought of as people. It's not just a class thing anymore. It's a freedom thing. And that works, in the way that the race thing did not in Men At Arms.

But while we're talking about things: so the gender thing!

Now you could read the Cheri thing in a couple of different ways, I think. And some of them are more problematic than others! But the part I like to focus on is this: Cheri comes from a society that tells her that she needs to present as a certain gender. She wants to present as a different gender. And she gets harassed for it, even by sympathetic people who are having their norms challenged, and she persists, within her comfort zone, and does it anyway, and that's awesome.

And at the same time she's expressing prejudice against werewolves, and Angua is prejudiced as hell against golems, and that's a good thing to point out, too, that there are different axes and everything is complicated, and being oppressed in one area doesn't mean taking it out in a different direction is okay. I like that, too.

And hey: first Watch book to pass the Bechdel Test! BONUS.

But I am also really curious to see how other people read this stuff! Tell me your thoughts!

In other news: I think this is the last book where Carrot does not outright terrify me? I mean he's even starting to terrify me here, but I can still be like, 'aw, Carrot, you're sweet.' BUT THIS MAY WELL BE THE LAST TIME.

In other other news: still not enough Sybil.

Crossposts: http://bookelfe.livejournal.com/299594.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

katta

I love this one, for all the reasons you mention, especially concerning the golems. The golem messiah is just so tragic - they wanted him to be everything at once, and he just couldn't handle it.

There's never enough Sybil. Is there? I can't remember - is there a book where there's enough Sybil?

Carrot doesn't terrify me, even when he's being all cunning (possibly because I can't stop thinking of him as alternate!Fraser), but I can see why he could be seen as terrifying.

From:

skygiants

THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH SYBIL. There is at least a bit of Sybil in The Fifth Elephant, and apparently some in Snuff which I have not yet read, but still never enough! To be honest all I really want is the book where Sybil ends up as an UNLIKELY SOCIETY DETECTIVE, and occasionally she pops in to the police station and is like 'dear, here is this man you should be arresting, and also I need to borrow Cheri for this case so we can do some very important chemistry things and also exchange hair and boots tips,' and Vimes is like 'PLEASE STOP BEING LORD PETER WIMSEY DEAR . . . okay I guess fine.'

Carrot starts to really scare me once you realize that he can perfectly manipulate everyone around him, to a T, and nobody will ever know he's doing it except Angua and even she's not a hundred percent sure. And the only brake on him is his own very specific sense of justice. That's a terrifying man!

Edited Date: 2012-07-16 03:20 pm (UTC)

From:

scifantasy

Not the only brake. There's a reason Carrot remains Vimes's subordinate, after all.

From:

skygiants

True! But I also think Vimes is so used to Carrot that he only half-realizes how dangerous Carrot actually is.

From:

ceitfianna

Feet of Clay is one of my favorite of the Watch books, I think because everyone seems to make realistic mistakes and ideas for all that there's magic involved. Cheri and Angua's friendship is one of my favorite parts of the Watch books, I love how it grows throughout later books and how they teach each other about ways to think about identity.

Also after reading your comment below on Carrot, I agree, he is terrifying. I think it first becomes apparent in Fifth Elephant and then is really obvious in Jingo. In Jingo, Vimes does seem to see some of how he works, but not in the same way that Angua does. I'm not quite sure why she sees through him when no one else does.

Yes, more Sybil, she's wonderful in Fifth Elephant, which is one of my favorites. I love all the Watch books, but I love some more than others. Also I really need to find a copy of Snuff, I hope the library in Delaware has it so I can read it.

From:

skygiants

Yeah, it's also just a really good mystery story! I forgot to mention one of the things I noticed this time, knowing the solution to the mystery in advance, which is that Terry Pratchett hilariously foreshadows EVERYTHING the Watch suspect in EVERY VETINARI SCENE. They all basically go like this: "Vetinari sits in his office. The book is ominous. The wallpaper is ominous. The candles are also ominous. Just FYI!"

But Cheri and Angua and the golems are way more important than even the actual policing and I love them all.

It makes sense to me that Angua sees through Carrot more than anyone else -- it would be even creepier to me if she didn't, because she is dating him, and spending the most time with him of anyone, and power dynamics! I would like to think that if my boyfriend was cheerfully manipulating an entire city I would be picking up on it at least a little. I HOPE.

From:

ceitfianna

Ha, yes, I love the mystery and how Vimes keeps checking things off the list and getting more and more worn out. Its a nice play on the detective trope of solve it all in a few days, no mess, no fuss.

Outsiders will pick up on Carrot, Achmed, the clove eating Vimes counterpart in Jingo notices it and Vetinari is clearly aware. Also the wolves in Fifth Elephant do as well, though there what Carrot is doing is made a touch more apparent. I think Vetinari sees Carrot as a parallel and acknowledges that but they have clearly defined ideas of what they will do and not do. There's a lot of using of each other going on with them as they both merrily manipulate Vimes.

Oh, I just had a wonderful plot bunny that I don't know if I could manage to write. Characters with complex issues of gender and presentation along with so competent. Imagine Cheri and Taura from the Vorkosignan books working together.

From:

skygiants

I do enjoy how the books kind of take great delight in jumping up and down on The Great Detective Solves the Case tropes. I mean, it's sort of not entirely fair, because they're out of different genres -- it's basically like if the protagonist of The Maltese Falcon took some time out to read Sherlock Holmes and spent a chapter complaining about it in between being seduced by femme fatales and shot at by gangsters and so forth. But I enjoy it anyway.

I'd forgotten about the counterpart in Jingo, but . . . I've forgotten a lot of Jingo. It's coming up on my reread soon, though!

Cheri and Taura working together would be GREAT. Although, hah, so would Taura and Angua, really. Wolfgirls unite!

From:

ceitfianna

I think that's one reason I love the Watch books so much is because mysteries especially cozy mysteries are my comfort books. I know a lot of the tropes and love seeing them played with. Snuff is meant to take on the country house mystery, which makes me look forward to it even more.

Jingo is an odd one. It has some of my favorite moments with Leonard of Quirm and Noddy trying to outsmart each other, but also Vimes overthinking. Its one of the more political ones and connects very much to Thud, the tropes it picks up on are a lot of British ideas of war. At least the ideas from before World War I, I enjoy it, but I know it has problems.

Yes, need all the crossovers of competent ladies kicking ass.

From:

batyatoon

A friend of mine theorizes that Carrot is going to be the next Patrician. Because not even Vetinari can manipulate people as thoroughly and as invisibly as he can.

I'm not convinced of this, but it could happen. I've always seen Carrot and Vetinari as ... I was going to say "opposite" but it isn't even opposite, is the thing. As two points on the idealism-pragmatism scale. Vetinari is so pragmatic that he hits idealism from the other side, and Carrot is so idealistic that he hits pragmatism from the other side, and it is amazing.

Also: CHERI, HOW SO AWESOME. *hugs her*

From:

innerbrat

Carrot as ruler of the city undermines everything Carrot stands for, though. The whole point of him is that he could be King/Patrician/God-Emperor of Morpork he he wants, and he'd probably be a good one. But he won't, because it doesn't think it's the right thing to do. He's a watchman, because a) he needs to be literally out on the street meeting people, b) he needs to be watched by the two people he trusts most in the world and c) he thinks the city needs stability (and Vetinari) more than it needs a better ruler than Vetinari.

And also there's the possibility that gets mentioned that a king couldn't get away with having a werewolf for a queen, and Carrot won't have that.

Carrot, in my eyes, is basically Clark Kent, and Vimes is his Bruce - the jaded bastard who will keep the Man of Steel from abusing his power.

- LOOK AT ALL MY CARROT FEELS. Apparently I have them.

From:

skygiants

Was Clark Kent ever as frighteningly smart as Carrot?

From:

innerbrat

Maybe not (although he best stories did involve him outsmarting people like Luther), but he has flight and invulnerability that makes him terrifyingly dangerous instead.

It's an analogy!

From:

skygiants

My personal theory after reading Unseen Academicals is that the Nutt-Glenda combo is going to take over. Nutt has the brains, and Glenda has the people skills! TOGETHER THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE.

From:

minkhollow

THAT WOULD BE AMAZE. (And Nutt also has some Margolotta-style training on his side.)
I... do not remember Feet of Clay well enough to comment on it! But YAY CHERI regardless.