(no subject)

[skygiants]

Next up in Books I Read for Yuletide And Therefore Technically Could Not Talk About Until January: Diane Duane's super eighties fantasy series The Door Into Fire, The Door Into Shadow, and The Door Into Sunset, which I read in order to beta genarti's excellent fic Outdwelling.

I think I should mention that all I knew about these books going in was that they are dearly beloved by many of my friends, and that the series as it currently stands culminates in an epic polyamorous marriage between five people, a dragon, a fire elemental, and possibly also a goddess, because WHY NOT.

I did not know in advance about the undead dragon mpreg, but that is also a thing that happens. SO NOW YOU KNOW.

Anyway, the first book follows Herewiss, a dude who is on a quest to tap into his latent magical powers and also rescue his prince-in-exile boyfriend from the various consequences of his own stupidity. Along the way he bumps into an amoral fire elemental who eventually falls in love with him and love triangle ensues, but not really, because polyamory; also he overcomes his backstory angst.

Then in the second book it turns out that this is actually an EPIC about how the prince-in-exile boyfriend really needs to retake the throne to stop the LONE POWER -- er, sorry, I mean THE DARK -- from destroying the world, in a vague and amorphously entropic fashion. I do not care much about this. But I do like the protagonist of this one, a lady sorceress who abruptly finds herself the unwilling mental host of a whole bunch of UNDEAD DRAGONS, after which culture clash ensues. (Warnings, though, for an unexpectedly graphic and disturbing sequence in Segnbora's backstory angst, and also for one of those no-longer-anything-but-hilarious-to-me scenes in which a character realizes their love for another person only to have that other person immediately plummet off a cliff to his doom.)

The third book is mostly epic battles and discussions of the responsibility of ruling. At the end of it I remain slightly confused about several things. First of all, I am puzzled by how the whole marriage-reproductive system works! (It's mentioned offhand in the first book that everyone is required by law to reproduce before they can get married? Possibly reproduce twice? But this is never brought up again, unless I missed something, and seems like . . . a strange rule . . .) Also: IS HASAI STILL PREGNANT AT THE END seriously I'm really confused by this I need to know!

But MOSTLY I am just full of fond nostalgia for super eighties fantasy epics set in sexually Utopian fantasy worlds where no one had homophobic hangups and all the plots featured some kind of cheerful pansexual polyamory. I kind of want to compile a master list, but for this I need assistance!

The ones that spring initially to mind:
- these books
- Tanya Huff's Quarter series

Which doesn't seem like much, but I know there are more! I know there are more that I've read! BRAIN.

Comments

[shati]

I did not know in advance about the undead dragon mpreg, but that is also a thing that happens. SO NOW YOU KNOW.

! These are the books yulechat kept talking about.



Unless ... there's more than one series ...

[skygiants]

You mean when they weren't talking about fetuses . . .?

[shati]

It was pretty much just me talking about fetuses ... at least after voksen gave up.

But I remember undead dragon mpreg. There's really no way I could forget it.

... Do you think I would like these books?

[skygiants]

Good question! I think they're a good thing to read if you're feeling like you want some eighties fantasy? I don't think you'd care much about the first book though (at least, I didn't particularly, it took me until the second book when the dragons showed up to get interested.)

Also I can't remember if you've actually read the Young Wizards books or not . . .

[shati]

Nope! I tried and didn't care that much. And I don't think I feel like eighties fantasy especially. I really just want to make "mpr-egg" happen as a word.

:(

[skygiants]

I like the Young Wizards books better than these, so if you didn't care that much about those I suspect you will not have better luck here.

WE'LL ALWAYS HAVE MORIBITO THOUGH

[aeslis]

Random, but! Where are you reading Moribito? I've wanted to read it quite badly, but I had the original Japanese which was hard to read, because no furigana. I also watched a few episodes of the anime, but no subtitles, either, so that was also difficult, haha.

[skygiants]

The first two books are published in English so I was actually able to get them out of the library! I think they're also available as ebooks from Scholastic. I haven't been able to read the rest, though. :(

[cahn]

I don't suppose Mercedes Lackey's Arrows books count? I realize there's not much pan-polyamory going on (although I always thought Talia-Kris-Dirk would have been a big group marriage if he'd lived) but definitely those books were my first experience with no one having homophobic hangups...

[skygiants]

I was thinking about Lackey, and she definitely was sort of lurking around the edges of this category, but I think she just avoids actually falling into it by virtue of all the EPIC GAY ANGST in the Vanyel books.

[vass]

When Talia gets Keren and Sherrill together, she thinks that if Ylsa had lived, Keren, Sherrill, and Ylsa "might have made one of the rare, permanent threesomes." And Sherrill tells Keren that she'd never made a move because she didn't want to intrude on her and Ylsa since they were obviously lifebonded, and Keren says that actually she should have intruded, and that she and Ylsa had wondered about that.

[cahn]

OH THAT'S RIGHT! I remembered Ylsa/Kren and Keren/Sherrill, but forgot that bit!

Oh man, lifebonds. Even as a naive adolescent who was in love with the sparkly horses, it occurred to me that for something that was supposed to be rare, it seemed to be happening all OVER the place in these books...

[adiva_calandia]

I just. Am going to be over here shrieking with laughter. OH THESE BOOKS. OH '80S SEXUAL UTOPIAS.

I think Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake counts! There are definitely a couple polyamorous (and I think usually bisexual?) marriages, and a subplot about controlling one's own gamete production. Also alien snakes.

[skygiants]

There was a (fantastic) Yuletide fic in which Sunspark from this book hops over to another canon and sorts out their polyamory problems for them, and now I really, really want this to be a widespread fanfic trope. Polyamorous World-Hopping Fire Elementals Fix Everyone's Love Triangles!

That is one of those books I've been meaning to read for years! I am always down for polyamorous marriages and alien snakes.

[adiva_calandia]

*cracks UP* OH SUNSPARK. Sunspark is my goddamn favorite.

I'll also say that as someone way more personally invested in the Young Wizards books, my favorite part of the Tale of Five books is seeing how they influence YW; Sunspark is pretty obviously Fred's predecessor, only with more polyamory, and I think I've seen fan speculation that Herewiss and Freelorn are DDuane's canonical AUs of Tom and Carl. I wish there were more dragons in YW, though.

Dreamsnake is a very strangely paced book, but I like it a lot!

[skygiants]

HE SHOULD HAVE A "DEAR ABBY" COLUMN. (No he shouldn't, his advice would usually be "burn it to the ground!")

Yeah, the influences are super interesting to trace! I would fully believe that Herewiss and Freelorn are the proto-Tom and Carl. (Don't their moustaches match up? This is why either Tom or Carl -- I forget which it is who has the moustache -- is always Tom Selleck in my head.)

[adiva_calandia]

"Consume it utterly with flame to express your affection!"

(YES, the moustaches, exactly. ...I'm not sure I can thank you for the image of Tom Selleck as Carl, but there it is now.)

[skygiants]

"A no-holds-barred fight to the death is the obvious first step in courtship!"

(YOU'RE WELCOME.)

[jinian]

Vonda McIntyre also has a Polyamory In Spaceships series, starting with Starfarers.

[cahn]

I LOVE Dreamsnake and its dystopia that nevertheless is a sexual and gender utopia! Was that the 70's or the 80's?

[dimestore_romeo]

The Wraeththu series pretty much fits the list. I mean, super 80s future hermaphrodite race of beautiful magic people and sex magic? FAVOURITE.

I feel like I know some more but I can't remember at this instant...I have borrowed so much weird shit from the library over my life.

[dimestore_romeo]

With polyamory, I must add.

[skygiants]

I don't know it, but it TOTALLY sounds like it qualifies.

I know, man! I read so many wac kybooks when I was a kid and only half of them ever stuck in my mind.

[rushthatspeaks]

I will love these books until the END OF TIME. They are still genuinely my favorite way of handling dragons.

Do you know whether you have the original or the revised version of The Door into Fire? Usually I am completely against authors going back and revising their previously published works, and I am side-eying Duane for the things she wants to do in that direction at the moment, but in Fire's case it's a genuine instance of THE COPYEDITOR WAS A JERKASS and the revised version is way the fuck better than the original.

Still hoping for The Door into Starlight one of these... decades. Mind you, it's been so long it will probably suck.

[skygiants]

I thiiink I read the revised version! I vaguely remember a note at the beginning mentioning it; I know for sure it is not the one with an inexplicable naked lady on the cover anyway. But they're Gen's copies, so she would probably know better than I would.

I also really want The Door Into Starlight! SO IT CAN EXPLAIN THE DRAGON PREGNANCY TO ME.

[batyatoon]

... I want to know what the revision was! I don't know which version I have and I didn't even know there were two versions.

[genarti]

I thiiiiink it's the revised version, because I seem to recall a foreword to that effect, but I'd have to check! I'll try to remember to look when I get home.

[skygiants]

. . . I might actually still have your copy. >.>

And THERE IS a foreward, so there you go.

[batyatoon]

I don't think "undead" is the right word for the mdeihei! It's ... kind of the opposite of undead, really.

[skygiants]

They have definitely died, and they are hanging around afterwards making commentary and offering advice and occasionally getting pregnant! That counts as undead in my book, at least until spoilers.

[batyatoon]

I tend to think of "undead" as "body has reanimated, person who lived in it is still dead". They're more like a haunting.

[skygiants]

A HAUNTING THAT GETS PREGNANT

[genarti]

I think "brainsharing ghosts" is how I've described it in the past, but "undead" is undoubtedly pithier even if it's less accurate.

[coffeeandink]

I see other people beat me to Dreamsnake! Also Laurie J. Marks' Elemental Logic series (not 80s, but whatever). Maybe Elizabeth Lynn's Chronicles of Tornor?

There must be more. I feel sure there were more. It was a whole Thing of my youth! Subgenre.

[skygiants]

Right? I keep wanting to count things and then remembering, no, that was only subtext!

The Fionavar Tapestry might sort of count if one takes into account the threesome at the end . . .

[vass]

Every Vonda N McIntyre novel or short story ever, including her Star Trek tie-in novels.

The Fifth Millennium shared universe novels by S.M. Stirling, Karen Wehrstein, and Shirley Meier. They're actually post-apocalyptic SF, but they read as fantasy.

Starhawk's pagan utopia novels, of course.

When I was a closeted teenager in the early nineties, I knew that being gay or bi was a real thing, but I thought that same-sex marriage and polyamory were fantasy/SF novel things. Then I came online in 1996, and there was Usenet right there, which was like telepathy anyway, and then there were real same-sex couples getting married (not legally yet) and people poly relationships, and it was like I'd walked into the alternate universe I'd always wanted to live in.

[skygiants]

I've never read any Vonda McIntyre, but clearly I need to!

. . . and I've never even heard of Starhawk's stuff, although now I'm having some epic Sheri S. Tepper flashbacks.

Oh, man, yeah. Usenet was before my time, but I do remember very strongly my first introduction to AIM group chats in 98 or 99. All of the good bits, and - I was about to say 'none of the traumatic bits of eighties fantasy novels,' but, I mean, it was still the internet.

[rachelmanija]

Oh, I love Vonda McIntyre! Read Dreamsnake. Ignore the unfortunate villain and concentrate on the genetically altered post-apocalyptic healing snakes. It's basically about trauma and healing, with serious issues but very sweet, with bonus everyone-is-bisexual.

For true cracktasticness, READ HER STAR TREK NOVELS. They are awesomesauce.

The Entropy Effect is barely subtextual Kirk/Spock, with time travel and lots of hurt-comfort. Sulu gets a major story and a love interest - this is really well-done. There are very cool alien characters, including crewmembers who are intelligent jaguars and dinosaurs - both female, by the way.

Enterprise: the First Adventure, also very well-done, lots of (deliberate) comedy. The Enterprise has to transport a traveling circus of varying artistic quality and ends up making first contact with an alien race. First contact is one of McIntyre's big themes, and she's really good at it. There are hilarious backstage shenanigans, a really good backstory for Janice Rand, a woobie Vulcan named Steven, and adorable flying horses. I really like it.

It's mentioned offhand in the first book that everyone is required by law to reproduce before they can get married? Possibly reproduce twice?

This is correct, and I think it's because homosexuality is so totally accepted and prevalent that it's to ensure that there's replacement-level population growth. Herewiss and Freelorn both have kids who make brief appearances.

[mme_hardy]

There's something somewhat analagous to this in the Liaden books: you are required to give your clan one heir, but your sex life is up to you. Your reproductive life is up to the clan, who may marry you off for limited terms to produce one child per marriage. This applies to both sexes.

[rachelmanija]

Tell me about Liaden. I keep hearing them mentioned, but I know nothing other than that they're space opera. Would I be likely to like them?

Also, where do I start? The other thing I've noticed is that there seem to be tons of them.

[mme_hardy]

There certainly are tons of them at this point.

There are two first series that have intertwining characters. The first series starts with a rescued-Cinderella story that I personally am ape for. (She gets to be a starship captain.) You can read a healthy chunk of "Conflict of Honors" at the Baen site.

http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/1587870029/1587870029.htm

They've tried to do sort of a reentry into the universe that starts with "Fledgling"; however, the lead character is somewhat aggressive and bad with people (chip on her shoulder) so you may or may not find it pleasant to be in her head. http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/1439132879/1439132879.htm

And a third option that is in the middle of the main series but that I find pleasantly standalone is "I Dare" in which the undervalued cousin (he can't fly starships) winds up running for his life with trusty companions. http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/1892065037/1892065037.htm

[mme_hardy]

I forgot to answer on whether you'd like them. So, up-front, no representation of non-heterosexual characters, a strong focus on happy endings with marriage and children. The only race representation is Liaden vs. Earth vs. various truly alien aliens. Liaden have "golden skin" and are shorter than average.

That said, they're space opera with a focus on an intricate etiquette system that is, to me, great fun. The language is heavily modal, and the various appropriate bows and appropriate speech modes are fun. There's an enormous Georgette Heyer influence. And spaceships! And derring-do!

I love them. I don't know if it would hit any of your guaranteed kinks

[skygiants]

At this rate I will have read more Star Trek: Extended Universe novels than I will have seen actual Star Trek! (I'm not actually sure this is a bad thing.)


Yeah, that's how she discusses it - I was kind of sad not to see Herewiss' kids again, actually - but I am SO CONFUSED about how it works. Do you have to actually reproduce, or is an earnest effort enough? What about if you're infertile? How is this actually policed, especially for dudes? Does this world's version of Jane Eyre involve someone popping up at the wedding to dramatically declaim that Rochester cannot possibly go through the wedding because Adele is not really his daughter and he has never had children? SO MANY QUESTIONS.

- and Sunspark has never reproduced, iirc! So is their marriage not legal? Important questions!

[luzula]

Third person reccing Dreamsnake here! I am fond of that book, both the main character and the worldbuilding. But I never really thought of it as pansexual poly utopia, even though there are elements like that--the main character is a healer, and there's a lot of discussion of the ethics of that world's medicine, and that's where the focus lies for me.

[skygiants]

Oooh! It sounds like Dreamsnake is definitely going to have to jump on my list.

[elsane]

Oh man, I was head over heels about these in high school, and couldn't figure out why they weren't a Big Deal in the field. They don't age well, they really don't. I am always going to be in love with the cool bits, which are totally awesomely cool, and the world backstory has that shivery, wonderful feeling that's so hard to find, but I would just like to place them in a story that has a better sense of dramatic pacing and structure, and uh a lot less magic therapy conquering backstory trauma for self-realization. (The polyamory can stay because it is hysterically awesome.)

[skygiants]

There are definitely some super cool bits! My favorite was the entire bit that took place in the creepy glass castle set-piece; that entire section gave me the good kind of chills.

I just want to take all the time spent putting the characters through magical therapy and use it for exploring some actual worldbuilding instead. What are class and social dynamics? Who makes sure all these Responsibility kids that everyone is obliged to have are actually getting taken care of? What happens when the Goddess comes down for her predestined Sexy Night With Everyone and it turns out the person in question is asexual? SO MANY QUESTIONS, so few answers. (The fantasyland polyamory can always stay!)