(no subject)

[skygiants]

Three years ago I really liked Unseen Academicals, and it is sort of a relief to find that I still feel exactly the same way. Yes, it is still a book that is constructed sort of awkwardly and goes off in approximately twelve different directions, and I still . . . don't really care?

I mean, I don't know how I would feel about this book if I cared about football. Because Unseen Academicals isn't really about football; the whole Wacky Wizard Playing Football line is as much a MacGuffin plot as Wacky Wizards Fight the Shopping Mall in Reaper Man or Wacky Wizards Rock Out in Soul Music --

-- and actually, now I'm writing this, it strikes me that Unseen Academicals is really quite a lot like a Death book in construction, and a bit thematically, too. Because the theme of the difference between human and Terrifying Other and whether love and friendship can transcend that boundary has always run through the Death books; it's certainly one of the most important emotional themes here.

And it's not that I'm particularly into Beauty and the Beast stories, generally -- or at least not the traditional Beauty and the Beast story, in which the Beast generally acts like an awful ass until Beauty comes along to sort him out. What I do have a soft spot for are stories about monsters, or people who are somehow monstrous, who are genuinely and consistently kind, who genuinely and consistently want to help people, and who do not allow their manpain to force them into the role of a raging angsty douchebag even under extreme provocation. Nutt fits this archetype for me; Randel Oland and Alphonse Elric are a couple others I can think of. I'm sure there are more.

On a totally different thematic note, but one that I also really like, there's the Glenda-Juliet dynamic. And at first glance this looks like your standard Pratchett plain-smart-girl vs. dim-pretty girl -- Agnes vs. Christine!!! all over again -- except it's not a vs., because they're never rivals and instead are friends and allies, but more importantly than that, the dichotomy is actually false one. Juliet is more than Glenda thinks she is, or has let her be; Glenda's arc is about letting Juliet become something bigger, and letting herself become something bigger too. And unlike Agnes, Glenda gets to ACTUALLY WIN. Maskerade is one of Pratchett's cruelest books; Unseen Academicals is probably one of his kindest.

And speaking of Glenda -- okay, so there's a throwaway line when Glenda first turns up at the Patrician's palace when he wonders what would happen if she went into politics. Three years ago I seized on this with unholy glee and decided that Team Glenda-Nutt had my vote to take over a post-Vetinari Ankh-Morpork. Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, it is TIME TO CAST YOUR BALLOTS . . .

Poll #13745

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 48

View Respondents

WHO WILL SUCCEED LORD VETINARI?

View Answers

Sir Samuel Vimes
1 (2.1%)

Lady Sybil Vimes
7 (14.6%)

Secretary Drumknott
1 (2.1%)

Carrot Ironfoundersson
1 (2.1%)

Moist von Lipwig
9 (18.8%)

Team Glenda-Nutt
8 (16.7%)

An obvious contendor you have forgotten whose name I will put in a write-in ballot in comments
3 (6.2%)

A non-obvious contendor you have forgotten whose name I will put in a write-in ballot in comments
1 (2.1%)

UM EXCUSE ME, VETINARI WILL NEVER DIE
17 (35.4%)

I would have put "democracy" as an option here but hahaha we all know that's not going to happen.

Comments

[scifantasy]

Nobody--if by "succeed" you mean "be the Patrician after."

Vetinari will be the last Patrician. After him, the system will simply work.

[skygiants]

There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine!

[scifantasy]

There is if you convince the machine that it wants to keep moving perpetually.

(And remember the Devices, the Cubes?)

[skygiants]

I'm not sure even Vetinari with the harnessed power of Leonard da Quirm has that much magic.

[ceitfianna]

I approve of the other comment and while I can see at one point Moist being set up for Patrician, he wouldn't work. He's too showy and while he does make stuff happen, he works best in small doses. He hops in, shakes stuff up and then it goes on.

I think Glenda and Nutt would know how to do what Vetinari does in terms of big picture and details, but they haven't been set up as much for it. I don't know, its an intriguing question and I wonder if we'll ever get an answer.

[skygiants]

This is what I think too! Although I know some people do firmly believe in the Moist von Lipwig Theory of Succession, he does not have my vote.

I sort of doubt we ever will get the answer, but it's a fun question to toss around! And I think it was John who made the argument last time I posted about this that it does sort of seem like there's a next-generation effect going on in the later Discworld books.

[ceitfianna]

Mine either, I feel like Moist is rather like Miles Vorkosigan, he works best as that type of Auditor position. Someone you send in to fix things and shake them up, but not in the long run. He gets bored far too easily which Vetinari knows, I don't think he was ever a good possibility for succession. I can see the logic of how it could seem that way, but Vetinari knows Moist too well.

I agree that there is a definite next generation feeling going on, Moist and William de Worde are contemporaries and Vimes and Vetinari are the establishment. Unseen Academicals did a good job of showing just how much Ankh-Morpork has changed since the earlier books. It just didn't feel like anything was set in stone either, I forget where I heard it, maybe from an interview with Pratchett, but he doesn't seem like a long term planner.

[skygiants]

Semi-relatedly, I'm still kind of sad we never got and will never get another INTREPID REPORTERS OF THE ANKH-MORPORK TIMES book.

[ceitfianna]

Yes, I want face offs between Moist and the Times since I loved those moments in his books.

It was that sense of oh, can I read these books, because you know they would go, you have secrets, let's find them out.

[sovay]

Although I know some people do firmly believe in the Moist von Lipwig Theory of Succession, he does not have my vote.

I don't think Moist has Moist's vote. It would be way too much responsibility and not enough confidence game. I can't decide if this means he'll end up with the job simply because the universe (or at least that aspect of it incarnated by the Patrician) does that to people.

[skygiants]

I mean, you could probably make quite a good story out of Moist's grand confidence game of, having been landed with the job, juggling all the necessary balls in order to land it as soon as possible on ANYBODY ELSE.

[carmarthen]

Haha, I was going to say that.

[flemmings]

'All of the above'?

[skygiants]

If it was going to be a democracy all these people should be representatives! And probably also Nobby Nobbs, for being the most Representative person possible.

[rymenhild]

If I were making a list of People Who Will NOT Succeed Lord Vetinari, Carrot Ironfoundersson would be number #1 on the list. Because Ankh-Morpork is not Ruritania.

Now, if Carrot Ironfoundersson found himself in Ruritania, he would end up as king even if King Rudolph himself was still alive. If Carrot Ironfoundersson went to Samavia, his name would be Stefan Loristan. Carrot Ironfoundersson would carry the Orb in Riva or pull the sword out of the stone. But Ankh-Morpork is not Ruritania or Samavia or Riva or Camelot, and the predestined prince just doesn't count.

[skygiants]

I was going to put ('BUT YOU'RE WRONG') after both the Sam Vimes and the Carrot options on the poll, because I firmly believe that neither of them will EVER EVER EVER be in charge, but then I felt like as a theoretically impartial poll creator it would not be fair . . . but in comments I can say that IF ANYONE THINKS CARROT IS GOING TO SUCCEED VETINARI, THEY ARE WRONG.

[kate_nepveu]

I answered "will" not "should". Though now that I think about it as far as I'm concerned there will never be any more Discworld books, so I guess there is no "will" . . .

[skygiants]

But who would actually get your vote? WHAT DOES YOUR HEART TELL YOU?

[kate_nepveu]

I think Nutt/Glenda would be amazing but it kind of scares me what they'd have to do to be accepted and rule with stability.

[skygiants]

I think Glenda could be accepted without too much difficult with Nutt as a discreet shadow advisor, but the problem is Glenda would probably not be willing to let Nutt be a discreet shadow advisor. Admirable for Glenda, problematic for politics.

[holli]

I am of the opinion that Vetinari is quietly Arranging things so that Moist will end up Patrician despite himself, and find himself to be good at it equally despite himself-- Vetinari has been teaching him to juggle by lobbing progressively larger and spikier balls at him, in the form of the Post Office, the Mint, and whatever comes after that. Eventually he's going to be able to keep a whole city's worth of balls in the air, and have no recollection of learning to do it.

However, I also think he's going to fob the job off on Young Sam as soon as he can decently do so; Young Sam lives in fear of that day.

[serriadh]

I would also vote for Young Sam as most likely to take over, if Vetinari lasts long enough.

[skygiants]

I think that is most likely to be setup that Pratchett has planned (if he's got anything planned), but I feel contrary and irritable about it because I sort of don't care about Moist. >.> I mean, he's fine and all, he just does not have my vote!

[minkhollow]

It won't be Sam or Sybil - they're of an age with Vetinari, and I don't think either of them want it.

As for Carrot, Ankh-Morpork is the kind of place where he can get away with not wanting that much power, however entitled he may be to take it.

I voted for Moist because of the available options, I think that's the most plausible.

[skygiants]

Everybody who wants it should probably be disqualified just on principle, really. Nobody with any sense wants to be in charge of Ankh-Morpork. RUN AWAAAAAY!

[kd7sov]

Hmm. Conflicted.

Sam Vimes is, I think, the sort of person who, on being offered the position, would glare, put on his helmet, and coldly stalk out of the room without a word.

Sybil would, naturally, encourage him to accept. And if he did, she would definitely do a certain amount of the actual running of the city, although I doubt she'd ever take the title herself.

Drumknott... no. He is quite happy as a clerk, and if Ankh-Morpork were the kind of place that could be run by a clerk it would not be Ankh-Morpork.

Carrot, I think, is summed up better by rymenhild than I could manage.

Moist... I kind of think that, if he were to inherit at this point, he'd manage to conquer the whole Disc in the space of a month. And we get hints of how well the last Morporkian Empire worked out...

Glenda-Nutt... I dunno. We really haven't seen them sufficiently in action.

I'unno. Make Susan do it. *goes to retroactively answer the poll itself*

[skygiants]

Susan would be GREAT, but she's already got a duchy she shows no signs of governing! WHO IS IN CHARGE OF STO HELIT RIGHT NOW? This is a question I actually really want the answer to.

[sashajwolf]

I love football, and that definitely enhanced my enjoyment of Unseen Academicals - the way the game evolves in the book makes so much sense if you know a bit about how the actual rules developed, and the way the characters feel about the game rings quite true as well.

[skygiants]

Oh good! I have no way of knowing if Pratchett got football right really, so I'm glad to hear that it's a good book about football, too. :D

[katta]

Team Glenda-Nutt would be very nice, but I got to Lady Sybil and went "ooh, yesssss!" so that's what I chose.

ETA: Although I notice now that it says "will" and my answer was wishful thinking, so... nah, I'll keep my wishful thinking.

[skygiants]

Lady Sybil is my second choice after Team Glenda-Nutt! Someone needs to keep Vimes and the Watch in line and there is ONE PERSON PERFECTLY QUALIFIED TO DO IT.

[esmenet]

Taking everybody else's answers together: Moist will succeed Vetinari for about a week, after which Ankh-Morpork will have mysteriously evolved into some kind of republic (officials including such people as Glenda, Nutt, Young Sam, and what's-his-name the son of that Klatchian restraunt owner, who I'm sure managed to get in on the ground floor of the clacks business in Klatch and has some truly fascinating ideas about algorithms).

[skygiants]

I FORGET THAT KID'S NAME TOO BUT NOW I REALLY WANT HIM ON THE RULING COUNCIL OF ANKH-MORPORK.

[surexit]

I WILL NOT VOTE IF I CANNOT VOTE FOR DEMOCRACY.

(MY VETINARI-RELATED ISSUES, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.)

[skygiants]

I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR VETINARI-RELATED ISSUES

[surexit]

I JUST REACHED A POINT WHERE I COULDN'T KEEP LIKING HIM BECAUSE TYRANNY. :(:(:(:( I USED TO LOVE HIM, BUT NOW I'M JUST LIKE, "...COULDN'T YOU GUYS JUST TRY GOVERNMENT?"

Particularly because Ankh-Morpork is pseudo-London-ish. I don't know, I accept so many ridiculous Discworld things, but apparently that is where I trip. (Now. Teenage me had none of these problems.)

[skygiants]

I GET THAT FEELING. I still love Vetinari as a character, because competence kinks, but . . . I get more annoyed at Terry Pratchett for everything that's behind him . . . SORRY PTERRY

[surexit]

PTERRY WILL FORGIVE YOU. :D:D:D