skygiants | (no subject)

So I read Diana Peterfreund's Across a Star-Swept Sea, which is the sequel to For Darkness Shows The Stars. The pres of For Darkness Shows the Stars was that's post-apocalyptic Persuasion, and when I read it last year I really enjoyed it!

I have more mixed feelings about Across a Star-Swept Sea, which is post-apocalyptic Scarlet Pimpernel retelling starring a female Percy Blakeney and which therefore should have been 110% up my alley.

Some of that is the setup, which I felt kind of weird about in For Darkness Shows the Stars, and I couldn't pinpoint or explain exactly why at the time so I ignored it; the best way I have to say it is that the design of the post-apocalyptic setup kind of flattens fairly complicated issues of neurodiversity. And even though Across the Star-Swept Sea is in some ways actually better and less flattening about that, the way it's used and made a plot point made me feel more uncomfortable. But that might be just me? I don't know! Anyway, I don't feel qualified to talk about that, although if anybody does want to talk about that I FULLY WELCOME you to, please, let's have that conversation!

Anyway what I do feel qualified to talk about is SCARLET PIMPERNEL AUS, so ... let's talk about that instead!

Scarlet Pimpernel AU stuff I really liked:
- the fact that Lady Percy Blakeney (okay, "Persis Blake") has a circle of female schoolfriends who correspond to the Prince of Wales and the members of the League. The Andrew Ffoulkes equivalent is named ANDRISSE. This is actually my favorite thing. Yes, please, leagues of women fighting evil together!
- the fact that Armand St. Just almost always acts fourteen anyway, so making him a fourteen-year-old girl is both perfect and ... results in that character actually being MORE competent and effective than in the original
- the fact that Dude Marguerite is just as overall useless at rescuing Percy as Original Marguerite is
- the fact that Lady Chauvelin is not in love with Dude Marguerite (which I was afraid of and would have been awful) but just really mad that her fake cousin/BFF ditched her AND THE REVOLUTION
- the fact that there is a scene in which Persis Blake makes up stupid rhymes. They are not, sadly, as stupid as in the original. Still, she makes up stupid rhymes, which I respect.
- the fact that no one is white
- the fact that there are a lot of descriptions of really over-the-top and elaborate fashion

Scarlet Pimpernel AU stuff I did not like:
- PERSIS BLAKE IS NOT HAVING ENOUGH FUN

Okay, here is the thing -- and, okay, a few posts back I called this type of character the Troll Hero, so let's keep going with that. The thing about the Troll Hero, and Percy Blakeney is kind of the epitome of the Troll Hero, is that the archetype involves a level of EXTREME self-confidence that hits the point of arrogance. Percy Blakeney can pull off his Scarlet Pimpernel masquerade because he genuinely does not care what other people think of him. He knows he's amazing. If everybody's laughing at him, that's even better! The ultimate joke is always on them, because he knows he's in control, and he can manipulate other people to do what he wants (you know, for the greater good). And he loves it. (Until Marguerite, and angst, etc., but this is the gist.)

Who writes women like that?

Who writes women who are so confident in themselves, who are so aware of the fact that they're smarter than everyone around them that it literally does not matter what the rest of the world thinks?

Who writes women who are laughing at everyone else around them all the time? Who are laughing at everyone else around them all the time, heroically?

Almost nobody writes women like that. People hate female characters like that. A woman who's confident enough to know she's smarter than other people? God, no! What a bitch!

Persis Blake does not have that level of rock-solid confidence. Persis Blake is afraid of her mask slipping; she's distressed at the lies she has to tell to the people around her; she's angry, she's frustrated, she's worried. And these are all completely reasonable reactions to have to her situation, but -- man, most of the time it seems like she's not having ANY fun.

Persis Blake is not at all a bad character, but ... guys, I just really want some more female troll heroes. I want them to know they're smarter than everyone around them, and to be right. I want them to be total jerks. I want them to have SO MUCH FUN.

Crossposts: http://bookelfe.livejournal.com/373733.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

newredshoes

...I may be keeping this note in mind.

From:

skygiants

EXCELLENT.

From:

nextian

I've been thinking this over, because I started trying to catch up, and I'm not sure this is a rec because I haven't had time to really backread and remember finding it very confusing, but I've finally realized that Griffin in Dicebox is the rare female troll hero and she is definitely (and despite powerful reasons to not) having a great time. (Though she's more genderqueer than female.. man, I gotta reread it and track down exactly what she says about how she identifies.)

Anyway, thanks for reminding me I gotta read For Darkness.

Edited Date: 2014-03-24 01:33 am (UTC)

From:

skygiants

Hah, I actually reread this post because I was like "...do I want to say female or do I just want to say NOT CIS DUDES?" and finally I decided to say female because "confidence = terrible" is specifically a thing that female characters come in for hate for. BUT GENDERQUEER IS GREAT. YES, PLEASE, MORE GENDERQUEER TROLL HEROES ALSO. Thank you for the sort-of rec!

Also yes, read For Darkness, then come talk to me about it, then ... be better than me ... about putting into words why the world-setup is uncomfortable ....

Edited Date: 2014-03-24 01:38 am (UTC)

From:

nextian

Hi it's been three full years and I'm reading For Darkness and came back to find yr review of it, and holy shit this world-setup is uncomfortable, are you still interested in an articulation of this in this troubled time or like would you rather I just reread Persuasion and sigh longingly at you abt Frederick/Anne because I think that's the next step on this journey, happy to do either

From:

skygiants

oh my god I don't even remember anything about the worldbuilding at this juncture, I've erased like 75% of this book from my head entirely but I want to hear you articulate it anyway? can I have both???

From:

sophia_sol

so what I'm taking away from this post is that I should read The Scarlet Pimpernel?

(also omfg I want ALLLL the lady troll heroes yes pls!)

From:

skygiants

Everyone should read The Scarlet Pimpernel! Like, it is not without its flaws, but TROLL HERO PAR EXCELLENCE.

From:

sophia_sol

Out of my liking for being prepared going in, what are its flaws?

Did you ever write up a post about The Scarlet Pimpernel, btw? I went wandering through your tags but all I could find was a writeup about the Takarazuka production of the musical.

From:

skygiants

Well, much as I love Marguerite -- the female protagonist -- she does not get to actually use her cleverness as much as she ought; there's some anti-Semitism along the lines of Georgette Heyer at her worst; and the French Revolution is EVIL, don'tcha know.

I guess I never have! I mean, book, film and musical were all very formative for me as a teenager, but I don't think I've actually reread it since I started booklogging -- just watched a lot of adaptations. My roommates went on a HUGE Scarlet Pimpernel kick a few years back, though, so we've got the original and a bunch of the sequels floating around -- I may go on a binge someday. In which case I'll definitely write about it. :)

From:

sophia_sol

Thank you! Those sound like flaws I can manage.

And I will look forward to reading your thoughts if/when you do go on a binge in the future. :D

Edited Date: 2014-03-24 02:03 am (UTC)

From:

sovay

I just really want some more female troll heroes. I want them to know they're smarter than everyone around them, and to be right. I want them to be total jerks. I want them to have SO MUCH FUN.

You want to read Gemma Files. Some of her female characters of that description are monsters, literally, but I don't necessarily see that as a drawback.

From:

skygiants

EXCELLENT. As it happens, I already have the entire series on my Kindle and two long plane flights coming up!

From:

sovay

As it happens, I already have the entire series on my Kindle and two long plane flights coming up!

I will also give you the strongest possible advance recommendation for her forthcoming We Will All Go Down Together, which has female characters all over the place—multiple protagonists and antagonists—and is stone cold awesome. In the meantime, check out "Crossing the River," which is not part of the Five-Family Coven continuity only by a fluke of genetics.

From:

skygiants

I am duly taking notes on all of this. Thank you for the recs!

From:

lacewood

I love troll heroes but it is a fact that THERE ARE NEVER ENOUGH LADY VERSIONS. It is a severe cosmic imbalance in the universe itself. >:(

I mean, universe, Touma Saya is excellent and I fully agree she meets and EXCEEDS all possible troll hero requirements TO INFINITY AND BEYOND, but she is still only one example

From:

skygiants

Right after I posted this entry, I had the following conversation with my roommate:

ROOMMATE: What about that woman in the Japanese series you posted about? Does she not count as a troll hero?
BECCA: YES SHE COUNTS 100% I can't believe I forgot to shout her out in the post itself!
ROOMMATE: ....so do you actually have that show for watching? >.>
BECCA: >:D

So I have done at least one good thing in posting about this!

From:

lacewood

A GOOD THING INDEED. :D

Also, while Osawa Eriko from Boss isn't EXACTLY a troll hero, a good many of her cases do involve her trolling criminals! It's great! I just feel she doesn't qualify because she only reserves it for (some) criminals and doesn't troll people in the rest of her life, ahaha.

One day I should read The Scarlet Pimpernel. ONE DAY.

From:

skygiants

And one day I should watch the rest of Boss! I started but then I got trapped yet again by my police procedural block. But I'm better about police procedurals now! MAYBE THIS TIME I WILL SUCCEED.

From:

lacewood

OSAWA ERIKO WILL BE WORTH THE ATTEMPT. I mean, maybe my opinion is kind of biased. But she's worth it. :D

From:

betony

*sneaks in to salute your choice of icon, because, as a new fan of Capital Scandal, CSJ is probably the best, and well, only female troll hero I can think of*
But otherwise, I am disappointed that this particular book doesn't have as much fun with gender swapped Scarlet Pimpernel as I would expect! (Also, being vague to avoid spoilers here, but...though I know everyone's aged down and therefore it's more or less logical, I feel like Justen and Persis's relationship lacked the genuine desperation of Percy and Marguerite's situation --I mean, the latter two are pretty much stuck indefinitely in their status quo at the beginning of TSP, where the same legal and cultural pressures don't seem to apply to Justen and Persis--and for that reason, didn't work for me quite as well as the original.)

Edited Date: 2014-03-24 03:43 am (UTC)

From:

skygiants

YES MORE FANS OF CAPITAL SCANDAL EVERYWHERE. Cha Song Joo, troll queen of my heart!

But yes I agree! (And agreed also; like, I understand why she chose not to have them start out in a relationship, because that requires a lot of backstory-building, but part of the fun of The Scarlet Pimpernel is that it's not just a story about people discovering each other, but re-discovering each other, and discovering each other properly. Like, I mean, OK, it's a shame that Persis has to pretend to this cute boy that she's silly, but ... well, first of all, she does kind of a terrible job at it -- BASICALLY EVERYONE has figured out Persis is really smart by the middle of the book, sorry Persis, shoulda trolled harder -- and second of all, it does not have nearly the same weight as having to pretend to the person you already loved.)

Edited Date: 2014-03-25 12:26 am (UTC)

From:

cahn

Hmm! I think this is one of the (super many) things I love about Gunnerkrigg Court -- Antimony isn't exactly a troll hero, nor is she immune to frustration or worry, but in a real way she has a lot of self-confidence, knows that she's different from everyone else, and is for the most part cool with that and even welcomes it. (My favorite part being where she and everyone else assumed that the Court was going to pick her as the court medium...)

And then there's Veronica Mars. Who, again, lots of angst, of course. Then again, there's Veronica Mars is smarter than you! which is made of win.

I wish I could think of more... that's all I can come up with right now.

From:

skygiants

It's true, Antimony is pretty wonderful! I need to catch up on GK, I'm several months behind. But it's always so much fun to catch up in a binge!

And yeah, Veronica has lots of angst ... but her angst is not about wondering whether she's awesome! I would class Veronica sort of under Troll Hero, although the noir tropes are a bit different from the Blue-Blooded British Aristocrat lineage of Percy Blakeney & co. Troll Heroes almost always have boatloads of unrelated angst, that's part of the archetype too.

From:

ghost_lingering

Most of the woman I can think of who are smarter/better than everyone and know it are also not the protagonists. Toph (AtLA) ... Olivia (FMA) ... And many of the woman who start as smarter/better then get smacked down by the narrative. Other people mention VMars and Cha Song Joo above and I think those are two examples of women who are better and smarter and then have to pay for it in ways that male counterparts would and do not have to (sexual violence, death).

If robots count then TSCC has a few. Sarah Connor isn't a troll hero because she's not in control, but Weaver and to a lesser extent Cameron are troll heroes. Robotic ones ones that are quite possibly also evil, but. And speaking of evil, Elementary has [SPOILERS]. But evil women who are in control need to be shut down because they are evil, so you still get the problem that these female troll villains are made to pay for their trollness in ways that their male counterparts would not.

From:

skygiants

Hmm. Well, OK -- there are male troll heroes I can think of who pay penalties that pretty much directly parallel Cha Song Joo's and Veronica's. Both Diarmuid from the Fionavar Tapestry and Ageha from Basara are supporting character troll heroes who make heroic sacrifices that are fairly analogous to Cha Song Joo's. Ageha's backstory -- and present-story -- also includes sexual commodification and violence. And ... you can make a pretty solid comparison of Veronica's formative backstory -- sexual violence, dead friends, questions of parentage and legitimacy, loss of reputation, possible accidental incest -- with Francis Crawford of Lymond's, who also checks off EVERY BULLET POINT on that list. (That was actually a comparison I had not thought to make before writing this comment, and now I'm kind of unnerved by how well that matches up, and also just grateful Veronica never had to watch her sad two-year-old child be murdered in a game of evil human chess.)

...ANYWAY. So I don't think it's quite as simple as "male troll heroes don't pay," because often they do, and in ways that are surprisingly similar -- but there are also male troll heroes who are protagonists and don't have to pay, or at least pay relatively lightly. (Percy Blakeney, for example! "I'm sad because I have to lie to my wife, who might be evil. Oh, hey, problem solved and problem solved!") Whereas female troll heroes always pay one way or another -- and while supporting male troll heroes die, the ones who are protagonists don't, and protagonist female troll heroes do (Julie Beaufort-Stuart.)

...but there is always Toma Saya! Toma Saya, who pays the price of: item, 1.) dramatic mutilation, which gets better; item, 2.) dead sibling, which I think maybe gets better?; and 3.) attempted brainwashing, which gets better! AND DOES NOT PAY THE PRICE OF DEATH.

Sarah Connor is also not a troll hero because she's not having fun either ... but I would absolutely watch the show where Weaver and Cameron were the troll hero protagonists. AMAZING. Jesse can come too.

And yeah, evil women I think are troll villains quite often and it NEVER ENDS WELL. Because, as you say, in popular media, confident women have to pay.

...also, wow, good lord, I am sorry this comment is a million years long. I just can never resist the opportunity to reel off the list of Francis Crawford of Lymond's woes! BLUE RIBBON AWARD WINNER OF TROLL HERO ANGST.

Edited Date: 2014-03-25 01:27 am (UTC)

From:

ghost_lingering

Ahh, well your examples of troll heroes who pay penalties are ones I'm not familiar with, so! That might be part of why it seemed to me like troll hero woman pay more than the men. I do wonder if I knew the male heroes of which you speak if I would get the same sense that they are made to pay specifically because of their troll hero-ness as opposed to just because of a narrative need for angst. Thoughts?

(I should also say, when I think of troll hero I immediately think of Sherlock in all the incarnations and they don't pay in the same ways even if they do have angst in their backstories. Plus, massive Sherlock issues over here, so.)

(Also, Death Note: can be summed up as troll hero vs troll villain, y/y? Maybe I would actually like Death Note if they would both women.)

Another troll hero/villain (it's hard to tell sometimes) that I thought of: Rose Cross Benjamin from Kings. She's not the protagonist and she manipulates against other master manipulators but she's still pretty great and comes out ahead more often than not. And for the most part she is very self-satisfied by her manipulations. And it occurs to me, belatedly, that canons with mysteries or politics are really the ones to look for for troll heroes.

From:

skygiants

I do think troll women definitely do pay disproportionately to men. I also think -- well, my gut feeling, and this could be wrong, but I feel like maybe part of the reason dude troll heroes do pay maybe harder than other kinds of dude heroes is because a lot of that troll hero-ness is ... not in line with traditional images of masculinity? Like, the go-to disguise for a classic troll hero is "silly, delicate fop." And the ones who are the prettiest and most delicate-looking are the ones who pay the hardest.

(Ha, yeah, and Sherlock is never my go-to troll hero, even though Sherlocks totally do fit the archetype; I think my mind grabs for the political ones first before moving to the mysteries. The long troll game, rather than the short troll game. I mean, though I also don't think of Sherlocks as at quite the same level of Shit-Stirrer For Fun and Profit as Percy Blakeney. On a sliding scale from Blakeney to Batman of How Much Fun They Are Having By Trolling Everyone, with Blakeney on the side of ALL THE FUN and Batman on the side of DOES NOT BELIEVE IN FUN, Sherlocks lie somewhere in the middle.)

(I know very little about Death Note, but from the little I do know, I BET I would love if if both protagonists were women.)

I didn't see much of Kings, but that definitely sounds like it would qualify! A post I read earlier today also made me remember that the heroine of Georgette Heyer's The Grand Sophy would almost certainly count, too.

From:

gramarye1971

I was running through my mental list of anime characters in search of troll heroines, and I think that Asako Shibasaki from Library Wars, while unfortunately not the main character heroine, is at least able to troll her way heroically through the narrative and not get smacked down for it. For someone who comes across as smart and confident throughout the narrative, she takes it to another level when she cheerfully outplots the series' quasi-villain (Satoshi) and not only traps him with his own logic, but makes him join her side. (It delights me that he's enough of a Magnificent Bastard himself to admit defeat gracefully and encourage her to continue to lovingly troll Tedzuka, which is fantastic because Tedzuka is so very troll-able.) Even in her more vulnerable moments, her doubts are never in her own abilities or how they come across to other people, but rather in the fact that she can't always tell her friends everything because it might compromise a mission or put them in more danger -- a plot point that makes her angry, but doesn't denigrate her skills.

And yet, not the main character. But still a worthy addition to the Troll Heroine list, even as a secondary character.

From:

skygiants

Hahaha, Shibasaki TOTALLY counts. Which is probably why Shibasaki was my favorite from that drama! TROLL HEROINES FOR THE WIN.

From:

strangeattractor

I was thinking about whether I'd encountered some female troll heroes, and here are some characters that came to mind:

Oar in Ascending by James Alan Gardner. She is a transparent woman from an Earth-like planet. She is pretty confident, and ends up being right most of the time. If you want a taste for her style and voice, there's a sample on the website.

Isabel in a poem called "The Adventures of Isabel" by Ogden Nash. I have loved this poem ever since I was a child, and I think Isabel's supreme confidence is part of why.

Eve Dallas in J.D. Robb's (aka Nora Roberts') futuristic romance mysteries. She generally doesn't take crap from anybody, except occasionally her friends. She seems well aware that she's the best cop in the city, and will use her reputation to her advantage. She isn't exactly laughing at everyone around her, and I'm not sure she's exactly what you had in mind as a troll hero, but she is confident.

It has been a while since I read it, but I recall that Gypsy Rizka, in Lloyd Alexander's short stories, seemed to outsmart people most of the time, and to be confident in her own abilities.

And, one non-female character who might be a troll hero: Drake Majistral in Walter Jon Williams stories. He's a famous Allowed Burglar, and the joke does tend to be on those around him. The first story is called "The Crown Jewels".