(no subject)

[skygiants]

I love that when I go to the Amazon page for LeGuin's The Dispossessed, the "also-boughts" includes a handful of other LeGuin novels, Russ' The Female Man, and something called Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative? HELLO, CENTRAL QUESTION OF THE NOVEL. It's very clear that LeGuin began to write by having a kind of conversation with herself:

LEGUIN: Capitalist realism ... IS THERE NO ALTERNATIVE?
LEGUIN: OK, but what about socialism? What if it really did work?
LEGUIN: Right, right, okay, say there was a functional large-scale socialist society ... I mean, that sounds nice, but people would probably screw something up about it, right? People are people, we screw things up, that's what we do.
LEGUIN: Still better than capitalism, though. God, capitalism. UGH.

Basically, The Dispossessed just sort of flat-out transplants the Cold War to the alien planet of Annares, then throws a slight wrench into the works by positing the existence of a group of anarchist-socialist-separatists who make such a nuisance of themselves that the US-equivalent just kind of gives them a moon and tells them to go away. The socialist-separatists promptly go off and build themselves a giant and reasonably successful kibbutznik society on the moon, cheerfully teach their children about the Evils of Capitalism, and pursue a general policy of NO CONTACT EVER except the occasional trade ship and some scientific radio transmissions.

Enter our protagonist Shevek, a brilliant scientist, who decides he's going to be the first person since the moon settlement to return to Evil Capitalist Annares, For SCIENCE. The book alternates between chapters showing Shevek's experiences on Evil Capitalist Annares, and the life he's led in his anarchist-socialist-separatist moon society that made him think it was a good idea to leave in the first place.

While the book is super, super Cold War -- seriously, EXACT PARALLEL Cold War; kind of hilariously, there's a whole Soviet spy drama going on in the background that is not really a plot point because Shevek doesn't care about it AT ALL -- it's not like it's not ... still relevant? LeGuin has put a lot of thought into how a socialist-anarchist-separatist moon society could actually work, and how the structures instituted by that society would shape the kids who grow up in it, which is one of the most fascinating parts about the novel. The worldbuilding and culture-building is super solid, even aside from the political implications.

I mean, it would be interesting to see the version of Evil Capitalist Anarres she would write now, instead of in the seventies. I bet a lot of the gender stuff, especially, would be extremely different. But it wasn't at all for me like reading Heinlein or even Russ; none of that sense of "I'M TRAPPED IN THE SEVENTIES AND CAN'T GET OUT." The book works. I suspect it will go on working. Also, I need to read more classic LeGuin.

(Although I will say, the culture-building is really strong, but the sense of nonhuman culture, not so much. I kept forgetting the protagonists were not just basically meant to be humans until a character from Earth popped up at the end all "HELLO I AM AN AMBASSADOR FROM EARTH AND YOU ARE NOT HUMANS. JUST IN CASE THE READER HAD FORGOTTEN, WHAT WITH THE FACT THAT THIS IS LITERALLY THE COLD WAR.")

Comments

[luzula]

♥ ♥ ♥

I reread this fairly recently, but I want to reread it again. This is the book that makes me cry the most of all the books ever, seriously, I just tear up all the time. Also, have you read "The Day Before the Revolution", which is a short story about Odo when she was old, just before the revolution broke out?

About the non-human thing: in this universe, both humans and the people in this book came from Hain originally. So they're not really aliens as such?

Talking of classic Le Guin, you're read Left Hand of Darkness, right?

ETA: Also, I love that Le Guin, when showed a photo of a bunch of Occupy people with a placard inspired by The Dispossessed, said "I am happy and proud that people still find this book inspiring!"

[skygiants]

I have not! When it comes to "have you read" with LeGuin, the sad fact is I've read literally almost nothing -- the Earthsea books when I was a kid (which I should reread) and then, of the short stories, "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" and "Solitude." That's it. SUM TOTAL LEGUIN. Which is why I really need to read more! Then perhaps I would have known about the Hainish origins of everyone in this book.

Also, that's an awesome story. :D

[luzula]

Okay, I really recommend Left Hand of Darkness as your next Le Guin, then!

(A fannish friend of mine recently read it and disliked it, though, because they were expecting it to be a queer romance. Which it is not, so don't go in expecting that! I mean, you can read that into it if you want, but the book is definitely not a romance book.)

[skygiants]

DULY NOTED. (And, hah, duly noted! I don't think I would ever really go into LeGuin expecting a romance book per se...although, I mean, I could be totally wrong, MAYBE ALL HER OTHER BOOKS ARE ACTUALLY ROMANCES.)

[strangeattractor]

Le Guin has written some romances set on her world of O, where marriages involve four people and expect them all to have both a same-sex and opposite-sex relationship within the marriage. The world of O shows up in short stories. I recommend the audiobook version of "The Birthday of the World and Other Stories". LeGuin herself reads some of it, along with other narrators.

My favourite stories in the collection are the ones set on the world of O, called "Mountain Ways" and "Unchosen Love", and one about a generation ship called "Paradises Lost."

[raven]

Oh, Le Guin. Always and forever my favourite, I adore her.

[skygiants]

She's so great! I don't know why I've read so little.

[raven]

I don't love everything she's ever written, and there's one book I actively hate, but when she's good she's so good. And have you read her translation of Angelica Gorodischer, Kalpa Imperial? One of my favourites of all time.

[skygiants]

I have not! :O What is the book you actively hate? *curious*

[raven]

It's Tehanu, and I also quite-a-lot-hate The Other Wind. But now I've said that I feel like I've got to talk about how much I love Voices, and A Fisherman of the Inland Sea, and The Birthday of the World, and Changing Planes (!!!! oh I love it so much!) because it's her, y'know? Basically, I feel like Tehanu/The Other Wind and Voices are attempts, at different points in her career to write the same book: the deconstruction of a fantasy world from the point of view of a woman, often a young woman, and in one instance it goes horribly wrong and in the other, perfectly and beautifully right.

And Kalpa Imperial! My heart always sort of skips a beat in the opening pages of that book and never quite recovers ever after. It's a perfect marriage of original writer and translator.

[skygiants]

I read Tehanu around the same time I read the rest of Earthsea, when I was in third grade or thereabouts; I don't remember it very well, except a general impression of finding it both interesting and deeply disconcerting. But all my impressions of Earthsea are very general, and I think probably quite a lot mixed up in my head with the Riddle-Master of Hed books for whatever reason, which is one of the reasons I want to reread.

But also so many things I need to read for the first time! LIKE EVERYTHING YOU JUST LISTED. :D

[cahn]

yeeeess! The culture-building rang really true to me, not least because she also thinks through the bad parts of it. Like you say :) (And also because my religion is sort of vaguely built along similar lines, and so I recognized a lot of the good and the bad from seeing it there.)

Also, oh man, I had completely forgotten they weren't human!

[skygiants]

I love the subtitle of "An Ambiguous Utopia," because, yes, if you're going to write any sort of utopia it should be ambiguous. (Oh, yeah, I bet that would make for a really interesting reading experience!)

There's the bit at the end where Shevek is like "wow, Earth ambassador, so hairless and weird-looking," which brought me to this really jarring (but interesting!) full-stop as I had to completely readjust my mental image of Shevek.

[zulu]

This is a great book: very slow and measured for most of its length, but still gripping. I like to think in a current rewrite, Bedap would get better treatment, though. No one minds that he's homosexual in the book, but he feels lonely and inadequate without a life partner and child. You'd think on a world with so many accidents/deaths among workers, he could adopt if he wanted!

[skygiants]

Aw, yeah, that would be nice. Though I guess it also makes sense that in a culture where kids are mostly raised communally anyway, there wouldn't be any kind of institutional adoption practices; like, why would you need to provide a substitute parent when the kids have the whole community anyway? Which of course is one of the drawbacks of prioritizing communal engagement over individual bonds, as is shown through the whole story, kind of.

[luzula]

Which of course is one of the drawbacks of prioritizing communal engagement over individual bonds, as is shown through the whole story, kind of.

Hmm, I'm not sure I think the main tension of the society is between communal engagement/individual bonds? (Which you're maybe not saying that it is--I'm just commenting on this because I found it interesting.) I mean, Shevek and Takver are shown as having a loving relationship (and I'd forgotten, before I reread it, how moving the love story is). Rather, I read it as saying that the social disciplining and group pressure needed to ensure that people don't "egoize" can also lead to people feeling pressured/disciplined in negative ways, like when Shevek tries to point out the accumulation of informal power and runs up against social shaming. I am not knocking social pressure in itself here--that's just something that is part of us as a species for good and for ill, I think. But it's all in who's doing it and in whose interests, and I think The Dispossessed is a really good exploration of the benefits and drawbacks of it.

[skygiants]

I don't think it's the main tension, per se! The social pressure part is also a HUGE factor in what she's depicting. But I do think she's also really interested in the tension between individual and communal bonds and responsibilities.. There's a repeated theme of people being assigned away from their families -- first Shevek's mother and the HUGE resentment Shevek has for her about (and tries not to admit that he has, because he's not supposed to, because one is not supposed to make that kind of claim on people) and then Shevek and Takver being assigned away from each other, and there is no way to protest this, really, because they are legitimately needed elsewhere. And there's the whole bit about letters -- nobody writes to each other really unless it's super important, it's considered sort of wrong and weird to write all the time, you're supposed to form bonds where you are rather than clinging to friends you've left.

Like, Shevek and Takver do have a very real relationship -- and they're lucky in that society does to some degree privilege and allow that specific relationship -- but even for them it's difficult, and it's repeatedly emphasized that the community always comes first. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in many ways! But, as with anything, there are pros and cons.

[luzula]

Hmm, yes, you are right! This is a part of the book I remembered less (which clearly means I should reread).

I have unorganized thoughts about, well, communal organization and individual bonds. Some of the strongest individual bonds I have had were formed in organizational work. There is definitely a potential for forming strong bonds with people when you work together for a common purpose. OTOH, it is also very possible to be lonely in a crowd, as Shevek often is, as I remember. Yeah, I have no answers. : )

[skygiants]

Yeah, it's definitely possible to form strong bonds in organizational work! But there is also definitely a problem with then not supporting longer-term emotional ties ... but again, LeGuin is really dedicated to showing that every system has its good points and its drawbacks. No easy answers, for sure!

[sapote]

Don't Shevek and Takver's children call Bedap "tadde"?

[skygiants]

I think they do! Or at least their first kid does; we don't really see much of the second.

[thirdblindmouse]

it's not like it's not ... still relevant? LeGuin has put a lot of thought into how a socialist-anarchist-separatist moon society could actually work

Yeah, we need to think seriously about these things before we found a socialist-anarchist-separatist moon society. Highly relevant indeed!

[skygiants]

Hey, the way things are going right now, I bet I know a FAIR NUMBER of people who'd be ready to sign up for the socialist-anarchist-separatist moon party boat.

[lnhammer]

Pro-tip: Do not read the sections in chronological order. The story simply does not work if you do so.

---L.

[skygiants]

. . . is this a common problem? Do people really do this?!

[lnhammer]

Well, I did, so at least person really did this. Once. It was, like, my third read, and I had to immediately reread in order to wash out the disjoint effect and get the past/present contrasts correct. (Otherwise, you don't get explanations via retrospective when they're set up.)

---L.

[qian]

I totally don't remember any of this :O Though I am sure I have read The Dispossessed! Time for a reread, obvs.

But it wasn't at all for me like reading Heinlein or even Russ; none of that sense of "I'M TRAPPED IN THE SEVENTIES AND CAN'T GET OUT."

Right! And with Russ it's like a howl and with Heinlein it's something else altogether!

[skygiants]

With Heinlein it's like you're trying to back away slowly, except you bump into a glass wall and are just sort of stuck there!

[salinea]

Oh, I love that book so much <3