skygiants | (no subject)

Some questions raised by Captain America 2...

Q: Where were Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers during the whole of this movie?
A: Obviously, he was AT ROBERT REDFORD'S NIECE'S BIRTHDAY PARTY. This was actually a brilliantly clever ploy on Robert Redford's part: get Fury to send all the Avengers to his niece's party, shut down cell service in a ten-mile radius of the celebrations, and then allow them to bask in blissful ignorance (until his niece is traumatized by having half the Avengers shot in front of her eyes, I guess.)

Q: If SHIELD is such a politically sensitive and secretive organization, why are all the walls MADE OF GLASS?
A: This is why Fury is the only effective person in SHIELD -- he is the only one with an office that has a de-glassification option!

Q: How can Natasha have done morally ambiguous things for the KGB when she was born in 1984, and the KGB was dismantled in 1991? Was she a REALLY MORALLY AMBIGUOUS seven-year-old?
A: a.) Well, yes, maybe; b.) or all of that was a lie; but c.) even if we accept it all at face value, then may I remind you all that the Republic of South Ossetia STILL has a KGB. Nobody said it was the Russian KGB that she worked for! South Ossetia is where it's at.

Q: If Abed is working for SHIELD, then which members of the Community cast were on the Hydra kill-list?
A: Troy, obviously. His magical air conditioning repair skills are a SERIOUS THREAT to Hydra. Britta is not, and is more angry that she isn't than she has ever been about anything in her life.

Q: Why was this movie called 'The Winter Soldier' when the actual Winter Soldier was, like, a C-plot at best?
A: Because calling it 'Captain America 2: Heil Hydra' would have kind of given the game away ...? Captain America 2: DC IS ON THIS MAP! .... Captain America 2: IS ON THIS MAP!

Crossposts: http://bookelfe.livejournal.com/375821.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

aberration

Fuck I am still so sad that the niece's birthday party wasn't a post-credit scene. Seriously they could've put that Bucky thing in the movie proper, I need Tony Stark and Bruce Banner awkwardly eating pink cake and wearing party hats and noting their complete lack of incoming text messages. With the hellecarrier in the background. ROBERT REDFORD'S NIECE IS ON THIS MAP.

From:

skygiants

AVENGERS-THEMED PARTY HATS. I desperately need Bruce Banner in a sad little Avengers-themed party hat looking like the saddest Hulk in the world.

From:

lacewood

Assuming this happens after IM3, Tony DID destroy all his suits so possibly he's STUCK WITH NO WAY TO GET TO DC? (Maybe Pepper took the private jet somewhere... on the other side of the planet... and Tony and Bruce are stuck in traffic in... the Midwest...?)

But I mean, the birthday party plan is totally tactical genius and they should make this the plot for Avengers 2. I WOULD WATCH THIS MOVIE.

From:

skygiants

BIRTHDAY PARTY HEADCANON. I accept no substitutes. (Well, okay, I would possibly accept a substitute of Bruce hulk-galumphing across the Midwest with Tony in the palm of one hand, making it to, like, Wisconsin, and then getting the call -- "oh, it's fine? OK, I guess we'll ... turn around then ....")

From:

katta

Where were Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers during the whole of this movie?

Official word has it that he was busy with IM3, but I didn't see that so I don't know. Hawkeye was namedropped, though - there's a very funny fic with all the messages he missed. :-)

How can Natasha have done morally ambiguous things for the KGB when she was born in 1984, and the KGB was dismantled in 1991?

I'm kind of assuming that Natasha is a lying liar who lies. Although option A is great, too.

If Abed is working for SHIELD, then which members of the Community cast were on the Hydra kill-list?

I'm guessing Pierce is, because even they think he's a bit of an embarrassment.

What I want to know is, am I to think Friedman has grown up enough to gain some civil courage, and if so, did Joan send him into SHIELD because God told her to?

Why was this movie called 'The Winter Soldier' when the actual Winter Soldier was, like, a C-plot at best?

People keep saying this, and I keep disagreeing. TWS is all over this movie thematically, both on a personal level for Steve ("I just can't find someone who SHARES MY LIFE EXPERIENCES! Also, Peggy doesn't remember me!") and on a political level (good soldier = completely obedient to the point of dehumanisation).

Like, sure, take TWS out of the film and the events still stand, but half of their meaning is thrown in the Potomac.

From:

next_to_normal

Hawkeye was namedropped, though - there's a very funny fic with all the messages he missed. :-)

Totally want to read this fic.

From:

katta

Found it: Next New Message

Edited Date: 2014-04-12 03:55 am (UTC)

From:

next_to_normal

YAY THANK YOU

From:

skygiants

UNLESS PIERCE BELONGS TO HYDRA.

...no, even then he is probably on the list. Hydra is also embarrassed by Pierce.

Yeah, I mean, OK, I'm not going to argue that the Winter Soldier was important thematically for Steve, but ... well, first of all, I think the Falcon was just about as thematically important (speaking of people who share life experiences, speaking of soldiering parallels) but also, come on, what are they going to call the next one now?

From:

katta

well, first of all, I think the Falcon was just about as thematically important (speaking of people who share life experiences, speaking of soldiering parallels)

I loved the Falcon, but I don't see anywhere near that level of thematic intertwinedness in his storyline. There's a reason Pierce's line, "Your work has been a gift to mankind" and so on, is juxtaposed in the trailer against images of Cap. Winter Soldier is the direct flipside of the coin, the dark parallell of Steve's story every step of the way (including the ice). The political plot would be nowhere near as effective if Winter Soldier hadn't shown exactly what kind of world they're aiming for, what their idea of a supersoldier is.

And for Steve personally, so much of his storyline is about what he's lost, how his world is irrevocably gone. Bucky's appearance is a glimpse of hope, that's twisted beyond recognition because Winter Soldier can't connect with him personally anymore, and has become a representation of everything he detests politically.

Sam's a badass and a great friend, but pretty much the only scenes that are relevant to Sam's story are the ones he's in. Bucky's story is all over the film. Even in some of Sam's scenes, like when he talks about how he lost his wingman.

IDK, this is so frustrating, because I feel like I can't properly articulate a pattern that is so obvious to me in terms of how the story is set up, and so masterful, and it's just... not there for most people.

It's a bit like when I was a kid and asked my dad, "Why is the movie called Amadeus when everyone called him Wolfgang?" and he said, "Because Amadeus means 'loved by God'." Which is undeniably what that film is about. Likewise, Winter Soldier isn't physically present for very much of the film, but his relevance echoes through the film.

I mean, yeah, calling it "SHIELD is fucked up" would be even more relevant, but that'd give the game away entirely.

As for what they'll call the next one, that's a fair point, but since we don't know what'll happen in the next one there might be another title that's just as relevant.

From:

skygiants

I mean, I think your argument is a solid one with good supporting evidence! I won't argue that the Winter Soldier is not an important thematic influence, because he is -- just, for me, he's not the only thematic influence, and not the one that was most resonant for me. And the Sam stuff was super resonant for me -- I've had to do a lot of work recently with veterans and veteran's stories, and the way Sam represented that, I thought, and provided both a parallel to Steve and a working model for healing and for living life as an ethical and independent soldier -- "no one's giving me orders anymore" -- was actually both surprisingly light-handed and super important as a balance.

Because, like, OK, maybe this is the thing -- so much of what's happening throughout the Marvel universe thematically is not even ... about super-soldiers, really; it's about ordinary people making choices. It's Hapless Computer Dude, and it's Sam, who is just a normal soldier -- who was in an impressive unit, sure, but still, no superpowers, a soldier among other soldiers -- and Steve Rogers, who was a little guy who really wanted to help. And that side of the story echoes for me a lot more than "Steve and Bucky, tragic parallels, tragically isolated and out of time, different images of the super-soldier!" Not that that's not also there, it's just not the only thing that's there.

From:

katta

I think something being resonant for a viewer is slightly different from being tied into several scenes, though? I mean, yeah, Sam's side is important - and I liked the other article on hello tailor about how he's being set up in ways typical of a love interest and Black Widow as a sidekick - but I don't think he's woven into the thread of the story as much. Which doesn't mean his scenes aren't emotionally effective, because they are.

But you could have a point that because I wasn't looking as hard at them, I didn't see all the ways they were tied into the pattern. (Oh, God, I cannot go see it a third time, why isn't "buy on DVD right away" an option? The cam version sucks balls.)

It would be interesting to have the script or a storyboard and just break it down: Here's where this theme pops up, and here, and here's this other one, and here they come together... I don't know if it's the script writers who are smart or if it's from the comics, but there's so much going on in terms of foreshadowing and symbolism. I mean, even rewatching the first movie now, a lot of the stuff is already there.

(I also rewatched The Avengers and came to the conclusion that Joss Whedon needs to go through smartass rehab YESTERDAY and stop choosing punchlines over characterisation.)

Maybe the most adequate title would be "Captain America and What Does it Mean to Be a Good Guy Anyway?" but that would be way too long. :-)

From:

next_to_normal

Obviously, he was AT ROBERT REDFORD'S NIECE'S BIRTHDAY PARTY.

Boom. Canon. I second the complaint that this wasn't the post-credits scene.

If SHIELD is such a politically sensitive and secretive organization, why are all the walls MADE OF GLASS?

Better question: If SHIELD is such a secretive organization, why do they plaster their logo on literally everything?

Was she a REALLY MORALLY AMBIGUOUS seven-year-old?

The Avengers: "Is she a spy too? Do they start that young?" "I did."

Because calling it 'Captain America 2: Heil Hydra' would have kind of given the game away ...?

I vote for "Captain America 2: LOL Good Luck Agents of SHIELD."

From:

skygiants

HAHAHA OMG THE LOGO. The things I miss by not watching Agents of SHIELD. (I really don't think I am missing all that much by not watching Agents of Shield.)

Well, I do think Natasha started that young, yeah ... I should rephrase, I'm just not sure that all her most heinous deeds happened by the age of seven.

From:

next_to_normal

LOL I don't remember how she phrased it exactly, but I figure she lumps the KGB together with whatever shady people took over after the KGB dissolved? I doubt the Russians would have let the Red Room go to waste. They're not going to let some piddly thing like communism falling stop them!

From:

jinian

This was totally the meta I was looking for.

From:

skygiants

Then I am GLAD TO DELIVER.

From:

evewithanapple

Questions I had: did Bucky's parents seriously name him after James Buchanan? And did the movie really imply that Bucky shot JFK?

From:

skygiants

Look, SOMEONE has to be Our Nation's Greatest James Buchanan fan, and that someone MIGHT AS WELL be Bucky's parents. At least they didn't name him Millard Fillmore Barnes!