(no subject)

[skygiants]

Diligent search through my past booklogs does not turn any notes up from the first time I read Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, which means it must have been pre-2007 which is when I started keeping track of my reads. It did turn up a promise that a reread of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell would be "coming soon to a booklog near you!" from ... July 2015, which tells you how to trust my promises.

Anyway! Going into my reread of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, here is what I EXTREMELY VAGUELY remembered from that first pre-2007 read:

- Mr. Norrell is a stuffy, awkward little man who makes bad magical choices
- Jonathan Strange is less awkward but possibly makes equally bad magical choices
- something unfortunate and fairy-related happens to Arabella Strange, who does not deserve it
- Jonathan Strange fixes it but makes extremely unwise choices in the process
- Stephen Black, a former slave, spends the entire book using his top-notch buttling skills to be polite to a fairy who's ruining his life, which somehow saves the day and also critiques colonialism
- footnotes???

which is why here, now, I am surprised and discomfited to find myself with an EXTREMELY LARGE number of feelings and opinions on an EXTREMELY LARGE number of things, including all of the above but also including:


- the bit where John Segundus very politely refuses to give up magic even though he doesn't expect to ever be any good at it
- the bit where Wellington approves of the zombies for learning hell-language with such commendable speed
- (that one joke basically justified a great deal of the Napoleonic War bits for me)
- (that and the Goya zombie portrait)
- the bit where Jonathan Strange breaks up with Mr. Norrell and Mr. Norrell's sad dusty heart is broken
- (both Strange and Norrell pretty much deserve everything they get but Norrell actually makes me feel more things in general than Strange does, A Surprising Turn)
- the bit where Segundus does not get to teach magic
- the bit where Childermass promises to be contrary at whichever magician is left at the end of the day
- the brief portrait of Jonathan Strange's poor Jewish apprentice who is better than the other two and therefore treated mostly as an equal except for being expected to pick up after them and not getting called by his last name, you know
- the bit where LADY POLE ATTEMPTS MURDER
- (how the hell did I not remember Lady Pole)
- (what is wrong with me)
- the bit where Stephen Black stops Strange from absently ruining Arabella's handkerchief
- the bit where Stephen Black fails to interact with the beggar with the ship on his head
- the bit where Childermass fails at Raven King
- the bit where Stephen Black and Mrs. Brandy stare at each other in sad mutual incomprehension because of Stephen Black's fairy-induced depression
- POSSIBLY THE SADDEST SCENE IN THE BOOK
- I'M STILL VERY CONCERNED ABOUT MRS. BRANDY who imo deserved better than to disappear from the text after two very sweet and sad chapters
- footnotes! !! !!!!!!!*

Here, meanwhile, is an incomplete list of scenes which I note are not in the book and of which I feel the lack despite the fact that there are ALREADY 700 pages worth of things:

- Emma and Stephen interacting on the page at all, ever
- I mean I feel quite sure this is very deliberate, it's too careful not to be deliberate
- Emma's inner life is a very consistently and carefully constructed mystery
- but I regret it all the same
- also it would be nice to get more glimpses of Arabella actively pushing Strange to be a better human the way she does in his Inner Mind Theater at the very beginning of the book
- I do mostly believe that the book wants to see me flinch when politicians talk lightheartedly about sending Strange to support the East India Company with magic but I'm not sure that I know for sure that it does
- I'm actually not entirely sure how I feel about the reveal that all of the events of the book, as propelled as they are by the failings and dreams and affections of complicated individuals, were part of an enormously complex long game by the Raven King
- this is not actually a missing scene, now I'm just complaining
- anyway did I mention my concerns about Mrs. Brandy??

*it's really hard to get across in this format the actual greatest strength of the book, which is the way it uses its semi-scholarly omniscient voice to develop and delight in and consistently question its own worldbuilding, so footnotes!!!!!! will have to suffice

Comments

[sophia_sol]

GOSH YES THIS BOOK, there are a MILLION things in it to have feelings about and also thoughts about, I love this book to itty bits and I'm glad you reread it and discovered feelings for it yourself!

also I am 1000% with you on Mrs Brandy

[skygiants]

ME TOO, I can't believe I left it so long but also I am kind of glad I left it so long because 2017-me is clearly so much better at reading this book than 2006-me was! As far as having feelings and thoughts about this book 2017-me is ON TOP of it.

[ceitfianna]

I have such complicated feelings about this book and what you noted makes me want to read it again. The style of writing works so well for me and all these messed up people intersecting and not. Its one that I don't easily rec because I know how easy it is to bounce off of it.

I highly recommend going to Ao3 for fics as Yuletide has been full of amazing let's add in what should be there. I think you might also enjoy The Ladies of Grace Adieu by Clarke because she does things like actually have women having their own stories much more in there.

I still have only seen the first episode of the tv show and waver on watching it because for some reason this book just works for me. Well I know some of why, I love the footnotes, the worldbuilding and the characters.

[skygiants]

Yeah, the reason I ended up rereading because Karen bounced off her copy and I grabbed it before it went to donation! Her loss, my gain. :D I pretty much went to the library and put Ladies of Grace Adieu on hold as soon as I finished it; I am reading it now!

[ceitfianna]

Oh nice, I look forward to hearing your thoughts as my first intro to Clarke's work was a short story in some anthology and I really liked it. I'll see if I can remember because I feel like its a story that would speak to you. Quiet magic in almost real world settings is a favorite of mine and when the writing feels of the time it works for me.

I think I might do a reread soon as I'm in the midst of a couple of Star Wars' fics that are all about how the story/history of Rogue One was known, records and archives figure prominently. And fact checking a book on the American Civil Rights Movement which also has me thinking on how history is told.

I think one reason this worked so well for me was I was able to really immerse myself in it. I bought a copy before going to New Zealand I think the second time since the first trip taught me that long books work. Then left that copy there and then keep buying new copies and rereading. My current one is from either a library book sale or a used bookstore.

[luzula]

I'm in the midst of a couple of Star Wars' fics that are all about how the story/history of Rogue One was known

Uh, excuse me for butting in, but would you link to them? That sounds very interesting!

[ceitfianna]

I'm actually in the middle of writing them, but one that will grow into something bigger is this, drunk history with Poe Dameron. I love that its canon that he's basically a Rebellion fanboy and its something I want to keep poking at. This is very much inspired by some great graphics put together with this idea; here and here.

Then I have another that's for now called Echoes with me thinking about how a few informants of Cassian's find out about his death and what they learn of what happened and their choices. I mainly write Cassian centric stuff but one of the characters he connects with is an archivist in the Empire who has access to raw images from Scarif. Then they decide to find a way to share that and later in the fic, I'll have Poe in the Rebellion archive watching some of it.

[luzula]

Thanks! I liked your storytelling Poe snippet. : ) Ha, I thought you meant you were reading finished works, I didn't realize they were your WIP:s...

[ceitfianna]

I could have been clearer in my phrasing, but these are a little closer to being finished than some of my other WiPs. I think I'm so used to talking about my writing, I didn't even think of clarifying.

[bookblather]

*butts in*

Drunk History with Poe Dameron is something I never knew I desperately needed in my life. Bless you.

*butts out(

[ceitfianna]

You're welcome. The ideas not mine but I love it and really should actually make that ficlet into something for Ao3.

[skygiants]

Conclusion: I LOVED IT, I will probably try to post about it today. All of the stories are so good! If there are others that aren't in that anthology, I would love to know more about them.

Also, as you know, I am always very interested in records and archives in the context of Rogue One.

[sovay]

(both Strange and Norrell pretty much deserve everything they get but Norrell actually makes me feel more things in general than Strange does, A Surprising Turn)

I feel, unsurprisingly, a lot of things about Mr. Norrell.

[skygiants]

It is possible that is the least surprising news I have heard all day. :P But yes, I was trying to explain Norrell to genarti and failing, because the thing about Norrell that's so difficult to express is the weird paradox of his character -- the harm he does to others is also harm he does to himself and he's absolutely to blame for every bit of it; he spends years fighting to drive everyone off his turf, incidentally stomping on numerous dreams in the process, while never acknowledging to himself that that's what he's doing, and then suddenly once he discovers he's not alone after all it makes him happier than he's ever been. I sort of love that he gets just about the only unequivocally happy ending in the book. Tucked away where he can study his books and annoy Strange endlessly, the true wish of his heart!

[sovay]

But yes, I was trying to explain Norrell to genarti and failing, because the thing about Norrell that's so difficult to express is the weird paradox of his character -- the harm he does to others is also harm he does to himself and he's absolutely to blame for every bit of it; he spends years fighting to drive everyone off his turf, incidentally stomping on numerous dreams in the process, while never acknowledging to himself that that's what he's doing, and then suddenly once he discovers he's not alone after all it makes him happier than he's ever been.

That's well-expressed, so you should just point genarti at it.

I liked so much of the miniseries, I wish it had not gotten wrong the things that it does. Eddie Marsan is an essentially perfect Norrell and I dislike using that adjective about almost anything or anyone.

[edit] There is a sequence early on that I believe is streamlined somewhat from the book, but which crystallized a lot about the two magicians and Norrell in specific. It's the second or third episode, whenever the Napoleonic setting comes to the fore of the story. By then Norrell has begun to add gestures to his public spells, although it's obvious he doesn't need them: unless there is specific ritual required, he's doing his magic with his mind, which is abstractly impressive, but his audiences expect to see something more than an awkward little man in an ill-fitting wig standing and mumbling to himself for five or ten minutes before nothing at all happens that onlookers can perceive. When he says that the sea-beacons of England have been raised and the island is safe from invasion, the TV viewer believes him. But it doesn't look like much. Meanwhile, Jonathan compares the experience of magic to knowing a melody as he hears it for the first time. It's intuitive. It's flamboyant. He kneels and digs his fingers into the shore and horses made of sand arise thundering from the beach, trample the waves in gales of glittering, foaming mane and plunge themselves into the ocean to shoulder a foundered ship safely upright again; it's like poetry. His sole book of magic is a child's primer on the Raven King, the wild magic of Fairy. And Norrell, who was so delighted by the appearance of a second magician in England that he laughed like a child and glowed like a lover, sees Strange on the beach and knows he has a rival, because no one will ever look at him, plodding, shabby, respectable, when they have splendid young Jonathan Strange inventing spells on the spot like something out of one of his own fairy stories. So Norrell sends him to the wars. To Portugal, as Wellington's magician, instead of going himself. It's selfish and spiteful and short-sighted and it backfires on him, of course, even before Jonathan comes home with his reputation made: he leaves with a portion of Norrell's long-hoarded library and good luck to that on the battlefield. I think Norrell would be a lot less bearable as a character—a lot more difficult to develop affection for—if he weren't so self-sabotaging when he behaves badly. But it patently doesn't make him happy and it reliably blows up in his face and eventually the reader starts wanting to see him straighten up and fly right just because the alternative isn't working. It isn't getting him what he wants. But first he has to figure out and admit what that is and both book and miniseries Norrell are kind of crap at self-awareness.

I sort of love that he gets just about the only unequivocally happy ending in the book. Tucked away where he can study his books and annoy Strange endlessly, the true wish of his heart!

I'm cool with it.

[skygiants]

That clip of Jonathan sending the horses out to save the foundered ship is one of the few bits of the miniseries I've actually seen; it's spectacular. (Though, now having reread the book, I wonder if they also are also able on-screen to commit to the follow-up that's in the book -- Jonathan's blithe notions that the sailors will be able to corral the horses without realizing that most sailors have no idea what to do with horses, the irritation of the sailors at suddenly having new sandbanks when the horses collapse all around at inconvenient locations, etc. Which is something I truly love about that moment.)

But yeah, the story is really quite brilliant at the way it almost forces you to have sympathy for Norrell, because all of his own worst decisions so reliably make him so miserable. His self-proclaimed noble goals and his petty malice are equally confused and ill-examined!

[sovay]

(Though, now having reread the book, I wonder if they also are also able on-screen to commit to the follow-up that's in the book -- Jonathan's blithe notions that the sailors will be able to corral the horses without realizing that most sailors have no idea what to do with horses, the irritation of the sailors at suddenly having new sandbanks when the horses collapse all around at inconvenient locations, etc. Which is something I truly love about that moment.)

I don't remember that the follow-up is part of the miniseries, but the miniseries in general is a lot nicer about Jonathan Strange than the novel, which annoyed me, because Norrell is pretty much himself. Which is where we came in.

His self-proclaimed noble goals and his petty malice are equally confused and ill-examined!

I would love to know who Clarke considers his literary antecedents, because I think there's a strong dash of Andrew Ketterley in him—think of the gentleman with thistle-down hair demanding to know Norrell's master in magic and Norrell stammering that he taught himself out of books (which does not impress the gentleman at all) vs. Jadis looking deeply into Uncle Andrew's face and finally deeming him "a little, peddling Magician who works by rules and books. There is no real Magic in your blood and heart." Obviously they are different people, but I feel that if The Magician's Nephew was one of Norrell's starting points, that explains a lot.

[edit] BOOM:

"I always really liked magicians. I'm not even sure why—except that they know things other people don't and they live in untidy rooms full of strange objects. In C. S. Lewis's Narnia stories there are only two magicians. One is weak and wicked, and the other barely gets two lines of dialogue. But they both fascinated me. One (the weak one) has a tray of magic rings, green and yellow, as shiny and bright as sweets. They're magic, they're jewellery and they look like scrummy sweets. What’s not to like?"

(She says if he's based directly on anyone, though, it's Clarke herself and a jigsaw puzzle.)

I should just research things before leaving comments in people's journals; I feel this is annoying.

[skygiants]

Personally I find it interesting to view the process of the research, so don't at all feel obliged to stop on my account! I would not have thought of Andrew Ketterley, just because my mental image of the physicalities of those two characters are so distinct, but of course he's in there. I also wonder if I see some of Middlemarch's Casaubon in the mix -- though I'm not nearly so fond of either of those characters as I am Norrell.

[sovay]

I also wonder if I see some of Middlemarch's Casaubon in the mix -- though I'm not nearly so fond of either of those characters as I am Norrell.

I haven't read Middlemarch: what's the similarity?

(Andrew Ketterley falls into the category of characters who I would avoid like the plague in real life, but from the safe distance of fiction have a kind of horrified fondness for, mostly because he is so totally outclassed at being a wicked magician once Jadis shows up. Some years ago The Magician's Nephew turned out to be my favorite of the Chronicles of Narnia, probably because it's the most batshit.)

[skygiants]

Casaubon is an elderly and rather pompous scholar with -- it's possible -- glimmers of genius; at least, Dorothea, the heroine, thinks she sees genius, and decides to marry him in an ardent desire to devote herself to a Meaningful Life of the Mind. However it turns out that in fact Casaubon has no interest in a partner of the mind and in fact her critical interest makes him feel wildly insecure. The marriage does not work out, alas, and neither does Casaubon's unfinished book.

(It was always one of my favorites too -- The Magician's Nephew, The Silver Chair, and The Horse And His Boy were my top-tier when I was a kid.)

[hebethen]

I too only discovered the depth of my JS&MN FEELINGS! upon my second read!

Did you have an impression of the narrator as a character?

[skygiants]

I was trying to figure out if I did, and kept getting distracted by the reported conversations, which are necessary of course but do tear away a bit from the footnoted conceit of the book as scholarly work written by a presumably independent scholarly person who could be a character in their own right. So ... I guess the answer is no? A very witty, omniscient non-character. What about you?

[hebethen]

Someone who crossovered with Indaverse and got their hands on a dyr, perhaps, hah. Yeah, sameish -- but I'd read an interesting bit of meta in some review or other about how the reviewer had a strong sense of the narrator being a woman.

[skygiants]

Yeah, I've read meta in that vein too (I think kate_nepveu discusses it in her recaps over on Tor.com). Having had the evidence pointed out to me, I can definitely see it, but I needed to have the evidence pointed out to me first.

[frith_in_thorns]

I really love this book. You don't mention Flora here at all but she is possibly my very favourite of the characters. An d I love Arabella. And, just, the writing is gorgeous.

but she did not offer to go into the Darkness with him and he did not ask her.

Lots of mixed feelings about the TV mini-series, but overall I feel it did really well, especially in the overall feel of everything. Emma gets much more screentime than she does in the book. Sadly, Stephen is incredibly underwritten, which is my main complaint with it :/

(If you don't mind I shall link the vids I made for the last couple of festivids in case anyone's interested: Arabella+Emma+Flora, Childermas)

[skygiants]

I did forget to mention Flora! Many apologies to her; a longer Flora-Arabella scene is very certainly one of the things that should be on my list of what I'd like to see that is not contained in the book. (But that last scene between Arabella and Strange is so, SO good.)

Lol, I was just thinking I'm going to have to watch the miniseries if only to vid it! Though I have read several reports of How They Did Stephen Wrong and I expect I shall be extremely frustrated with it on that account. Anyway thank you for linking your vids, they are gorgeous! I love the use of the cards in the Childermass vid, and the music in All That's Left Are Your Bones is so perfect and haunting!

[sovay]

Sadly, Stephen is incredibly underwritten, which is my main complaint with it

Sadly and annoyedly—especially since there was no reason for it—agreed.

[stultiloquentia]

I have nothing in particular to add, except a link to this creepy-gorgeous little abandoned fic snippet my friend wrote.

[skygiants]

Oh cool, thank you for the link!

[qian]

I too am forever upset that Mrs Brandy just gets DROPPED somewhere among the millions of subplots in the book! Does she ever get to see her crush again :(

I got incredibly obsessed with the miniseries, you should watch it because I want to hear your thoughts and feelings! I think the gentleman with the thistledown hair and Stephen Black were its greatest failures, but it was stronger on the women than the book IMO. Not that the women got a lot more to do than in the book; they were just allowed to take up more space, I think.

[skygiants]

SHE SAYS SHE'D GO WITH HIM ANYWHERE, anywhere could easily include a trip to a very well-organized fairy kingdom! there's magicians everywhere now who could sort it for her! let Stephen talk to actual humans again, LET THE CUTE WIDOW KEEP CRUSHING

I think I am going to have to watch it if only to hypothetically take notes for future vids! and also because the book is enough on my brain that I am looking to prolong the experience however possible :D

[starlady]

I read the whole book over Christmas break, which is a seasonally appropriate time to read it, and I will never, ever forget the scene where Childermass meets the Raven King and fails to recognize him. I love a lot of the characters, but CHILDERMASS somehow wound up being my favorite.

I really need to do a reread.

[skygiants]

Going in I was like 'I seem to see people talking a lot about Childermass but I don't remember why I should care?' and then halfway through I was like 'well I guess I can see why a fandom cares about Childermass, it seems the sort of thing fandom would do' and then by the end I was like 'OH NO I CARE EXCEEDINGLY ABOUT CHILDERMASS, WHAT HAPPENED HERE.'

[bookblather]

What a good book this was, ugh. I have to read it again now.

[skygiants]

Rereading was an A+ decision, would recommend!

[gogollescent]

My absolute favorite Stephen&Emma fic ever, unless instead it's this shorter one by the same author.

(I really love the John-Uskglass-long-con aspect of "both Strange and Norrell's entire existences," but I think that's because I find both Norrell and Strange convincing enough that it felt less like a "gotcha!"--s1 Princess Tutu finale?--and more like the s2 weird bittersweet vindication, of, idk, reality really IS fake and meant for someone other than you, and you're still alive in there, despite that. Well, that's probably a little too affirming, that better describes my feelings on Stephen's arc, and I think Stephen makes most sense as the one person outside the prophecy. But... something like that.)

[skygiants]

Thank you for the links, they did indeed fill the Stephen&Emma-shaped hole in my heart!

(...comparing things to Princess Tutu s2 to get me to come round on them is a wildly unfair but highly effective tactic. Though I think I would find it less frustrating and more compelling if Norrell and Strange ever really had the chance to understand the implications of it; maybe the fact that they don't and can't understand is part of the point but it speaks to me less emotionally than, uh, the complicated existential horror of attempting to define selfhood in the face of destiny.)

[gogollescent]

NO THAT'S LEGIT, I think when I say I "find Strange and Norrell convincing" part of what I mean is that, despite their comical obliviousness in the novel's climax, I don't think they're necessarily being shuffled off to... be ridiculous and oblivious offscreen forever, I think they're just. slow learners. Part of the reason I enjoy Strange and Arabella's sentimental leavetaking is that I think it's important for establishing/reminding us of the sincerity and clarity of both spouses' motives even within the prophecy-machine, which certainly is not so much... defining selfhood in defiance of destiny, but more like, establishing the self's equal authenticity regardless of what larger frame exists; as with Stephen in the epilogue, these people are just as capable of looking down at Uskglass-animated England and shrugging as the magical world is of using and discarding them. But of course, I'm not actually into the out-and-out individual vs fate struggle, I just like the creepy tension in the buildup, so it makes sense that I'm hot for that ending. >_>