skygiants | (no subject)

One of the kids in Technically, You Started It is a gamer and there's a fair bit of gaming discussion, which got me nostalgic for Guide To How To Fail At Online Dating, so I decided to try out another gamer-romance cnovel, You Boys Play Games Very Well.

This book was fine, but mostly it just also made me nostalgic for Guide to How to Fail at Online Dating, which I had caveats about initially seem to get fonder and fonder of the farther I get from having read it the first time ...

You Boys Play Games Very Well is a very straightforward story: Ling Meng, a medium-good gamer who's known for his sass level, accidentally becomes a meme for the quip he delivers after he gets defeated by moderately famous streamer Mangosteen live on air, who also turns out to go to his same college. They cycle rapidly through a (one-sided) rivalry through to friendship; Mangosteen flirts aggressively with Ling Meng on-air; Ling Meng cheerfully assumes that Mangosteen is just queerbaiting to gather points with his fans; eventually Mangosteen gets tired of this and explains that, no, he is genuinely trying to hit on Ling Meng, would Ling Meng be interested, yes or no. And then they are dating! Meanwhile, both of them attempt to figure out to what level they want to go pro in the gamer/streamer world and make it their career or stay casual. It's all very sweet and chill and low-conflict but it was hard for me not to compare it against Guide to How to Fail at Online Dating, which had significantly richer and more endearing characterization for the leads and also felt in the end like a much more balanced relationship.

The other thing that was sort of fascinating for me about this story, though, was how much of the romance is constantly framed and commented on by the gamers and fans hanging out in Mangosteen and Ling Meng's livestreams -- Ling Meng, especially, starts to see a degree of professional success because people come to see the cute gamer boys romance unfold -- and this is never a point of conflict or discomfort; like, Ling Meng makes some noises in his chat about wanting people to focus on games in his stream rather than talk about how cute he is/how cute he and his boyfriend are but this is in no way borne out by his actions as they both continue to be very public online ... and it seems clear to me that the reader also to some extent is intended to identify with the people commenting in the livechat about what's going on, we're all here enjoying this fanservice together. And, like, I'm very interested in fiction about the difference between public and private personas, and public and private relationships, and calculations about what makes sense to present for a camera/audience and how playing those roles impacts how you feel about them in reality! But that isn't at all what this book is; despite Ling Meng's early assumption that Mangosteen is playing their flirtation up for the fans, there really is no depiction of calculation or critical assessment here. Instead, the book seems to assume that we, the reader, would like to assume that really there is no difference at all -- that what's presented on camera is one hundred percent exactly what's going on in reality and the act of observation does not change the thing observed in any way.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

oracne

Your description reminds me of some MCU fic which involves various Avengers on social media; for example, Bucky trolling people on Twitter, or Steve Rogers talking with historians online.

From:

skygiants

Yeah, it felt really fannish to me in that way, and it's a genre of fic that I can find really interesting or really bounce off of depending on how it's handled; like, famous people do sometimes shoot their mouths off online, but that has a lot of negative consequences, and wish-fulfillment about Famous People Being Very Straightforward On The Internet And Everyone Loves It is often difficult for me to suspend my disbelief about.

From:

oracne

I can totally visualize Tony Stark shooting his mouth off online, frequently. And consequences. But he's already a train wreck.

From:

alias_sqbr

Instead, the book seems to assume that we, the reader, would like to assume that really there is no difference at all -- that what's presented on camera is one hundred percent exactly what's going on in reality and the act of observation does not change the thing observed in any way.

Oooh, oh no, that does not sound fun to me at all.

Have you read "I ship my adversary and me"? It's unfinished and VERY silly but has fun playing around with that distinction.

It's about two actors who barely know each other whose fans have decided they are bitter rivals. The protagonist discovers shippy fanfic about them and gets really into it, and then proceeds to read all their interactions through this sort of double vision of unshippy 'reality' versus fun tinhatting. And a lot of the tinhatting IS definitely false, but some of it has more basis than he realises or is willing to admit to himself. Things gets increasingly intense as they act deliberately fanservicey (but not TOO gay) to get ratings while also stumbling through various ridiculous romantic misunderstandings.

From:

skygiants

I have not, but it's been on my list as recommended and that description sounds GREAT. I want to wait until it's fully translated but as soon as it is, I'll be there with bells on. :D

From:

alias_sqbr

Entirely fair! I hope you enjoy it in...does the maths based on recent translation update frequency ...2024 sighs

From:

sovay

Ling Meng cheerfully assumes that Mangosteen is just queerbaiting to gather points with his fans; eventually Mangosteen gets tired of this and explains that, no, he is genuinely trying to hit on Ling Meng, would Ling Meng be interested, yes or no.

I like that, but then I want the narrative to explore at least a little of what it's like trying to conduct a genuine romance in an environment where it might as well be kayfabe, since I imagine it would be complicated and the book sounds like not!

From:

skygiants

Right! And, like, it is sort of fascinating, in a disingenuous way, because it is said (and we're meant to take as true) that Ling Meng ought to have known all the on-camera flirting was real because Mangosteen has never done that sort of kayfabe with anyone else, so -- but, like, these kids are streaming all the time, nobody has their camera on that much completely by accident, and private methods of communication are super available, it would be so easy for them to be private if they wanted and they definitely don't!

From:

thistleingrey

hmm, interesting. Even workplace romances that don't have the online-broadcast/fan component have multiple layers and facets of truth (or truthiness), from what I've seen. Erasing or minimizing that seems ... naive?

From:

skygiants

Yeah, like -- all the instances of stuff being not exactly as it's presented is because the kids make a gaffe and stream more than they meant to so the internet knows that (for ex.) they're at each other's houses, and then they'll be embarrassed for a second and then go, like, "yes, OK, I guess it is time for the internet to know that I met your mom today and she was very supportive!" and explain exactly what happened to their fans. And this happens all the time, but the narrative doesn't really seems to have a sense that this is a ... performative thing to do? Just more or less takes it for granted that in fact the internet is entitled to this private information about their relationship.

From:

pengwern

I wonder if I could rec you I ship my adversary x me? It does that thing very well, and is adorable to boot, and doesn't go squicky places with its relationship apart from a tiny bit of second hand embarrassment. (The intrusion of online forum stuff in cnovels is pretty ....entrenched/typical, and my personal feelings aren't as fond as other online fandom inclusions, but that's on the nature of webspaces over there >_<)

From:

skygiants

Lol, you're the second person in this thread to rec it to me and it sounds extremely up my alley, but I am going to exercise great restraint and wait to read it until the translation is finished! Despite great temptation!

From:

pengwern

I missed that but \o/ (I really did enjoy the translation for that story though, which to me eyes maintained a good balance between the hilariously ....extra voice of the original and readability, but another friend thought it was slightly too opaque for people who don't know the actual phrases.)

From:

ranalore

That sounds really frustrating. Especially as an RPF fan who has been burned by the difference between person and persona—despite doing my utmost to keep them mentally separated—I would never be able to buy such a relationship as presented. I'd assume at least one character was (sub)consciously refusing to reflect on how all of their "shippy" behavior kept somehow ending up on camera, and that things were inevitably going to come to a head at some point in the future.

From:

skygiants

It did feel to me a bit like an ... RPF wish-fulfillment fantasy, sort of thing? Absolutely all the complications smoothed out -- no separation of performative persona, and no concerns about privacy or boundaries whatsoever.

From:

lokifan

I'm very interested in fiction about the difference between public and private personas, and public and private relationships, and calculations about what makes sense to present for a camera/audience and how playing those roles impacts how you feel about them in reality! But that isn't at all what this book is; despite Ling Meng's early assumption that Mangosteen is playing their flirtation up for the fans, there really is no depiction of calculation or critical assessment here. Instead, the book seems to assume that we, the reader, would like to assume that really there is no difference at all -- that what's presented on camera is one hundred percent exactly what's going on in reality and the act of observation does not change the thing observed in any way.

Boo, I wouldn't like that. The chance of the book being about that is what made me go "ooh" when I started your review! Hank Green's An Absolutely Remarkable Thing is partly about that and it's one of my favourite things about it - but then he's also a Youtuber/internet famous person who can afford to discuss the gap between persona and reality.