(no subject)

[skygiants]

I had two very different media experiences recently that somehow both turned out to have more or less the same dramatic mid-media twist, so I have decided I might as well talk about them by comparing them. I apologize if I have in this way spoiled anyone who knows one of these media properties but not the other for either Knights of the Old Republic (Bioware RPG video game, 2003) or Argylle (action comedy, 2024.)

Pacing
Argylle is over two hours long. This is much too long for the movie that it is. However, KOTOR took me over 40 hours to play and the last two hours of that were just running around flailing, screaming, and saving after every five minutes. Also I hate the long minigame that you have to play whenever the ships attack you in between planets, because I am bad at it. Point: Argylle.

Romance
Well, to be honest, I did not successfully romance anyone in KOTOR, and I don't particularly feel like I was missing out. On the other hand, the romance in Argylle sort of combines the worst qualities of all the KOTOR textual romance options put together: like Bastila, he's forcibly conscripting the protagonist into Adventure while gaslighting her about her identity; like Juhani, he's got a profound case of hero-worship without knowing the full details of the heroine's Turn to Evil; and, like Carth, he's Just A Guy in a mildly misogynistic way, except Carth also has the Just A Guy charm factor of being the only person in your party who is even more confused and concerned about everything that's happening than you are, whereas Sam Rockwell in Argylle is Just a Guy but also thinks stomping through people's heads is no big deal. Deeply charmless. I proposed to genarti later that I thought Bill Pullman in his heyday could possibly have pulled off a charming version of this character and I may have been thinking of Carth when I said that, and then we got into an argument about whether Bill Pullman is Hollywood Hot or Just A Guy [or Hollywood's version of Just A Guy] in a way that wouldn't work for the guy in Argylle, but also the guy in Argylle didn't work for me, so. Point: KOTOR.

Pets
The heroine of Argylle tows around her cat in one of those little backpacks. This is cute but stressful, especially since the cat is a Scottish fold and so one is concerned for his little joints. The hero of KOTOR tows around a horrible murder cat of an assassin droid named HK-47. This is even more charming and I am not concerned for his little joints at all. Point: KOTOR.

Other characters
Aside from HK-47, KOTOR's best character is Jolee Bindo, an charmingly eccentric anti-authoritarian ex-Jedi mentor who spouts cryptic wisdom and could easily be played by Samuel L. Jackson. Argylle's best character is also a charming eccentric who is in fact played by Samuel L. Jackson. However, in Argylle, rather than being an anti-authoritarian, he is a Fed; also, he's also only on screen for like ten minutes out of the whole, whereas you can bring Jolee with you literally everywhere for 90% of the game. Point: KOTOR.

Placement within a larger franchise
I knew going in that KOTOR was a Star Wars Property that I was Going to Experience, for better or for worse. I did not know going in that Argylle was part of the larger King's Man universe. I was enjoying never having seen a film in the King's Man universe and I regret that this is no longer true. Point: KOTOR.

Highest high
Argylle has a scene in which the heroine straps knives to her feet and ice skates through a pool of liquid petroleum in order to murder her way through twenty goons. KOTOR has nothing to compare. Point: Argylle.

Lowest low
You know there were a lot of moments in Argylle that I think I didn't particularly enjoy at the time, but at present the only ones I can remember are the head-stomping-like-melons and the line in which someone compares the heroine to John Le Carre, which nearly made me shout 'take his name out of your mouth!' in the middle of the theater. However, the side quest in KOTOR about the husband droid will haunt me forever, and not in the good way. Point: Argylle.

As Queer Media
In KOTOR, Juhani is canonically a lesbian Jedi and you can romance her. Her romance arc is not that interesting to me but you know what, good for Bioware in 2003. Conversely, nobody in Argylle is canonically gay. However, it does hint just enough that Our Heroine had a backstory fling with another female character to be titillating without ever coming out and confirming itself! Also, the heroine has been subconsciously writing herself into her books as Henry Cavill, and her love interest as John Cena, so one can infer that she may have some gender stuff going on and also that in the text-within-a-text Henry Cavill and John Cena are intended to kiss at some point. None of this is engaged with at all within the text of the film and I wouldn't trust it with it if it did, but it's certainly all there to be inferred. I found it all mildly irritating-to-insulting but someone could probably write interesting fic about it. Still, point: KOTOR.

That Big Twist
In KOTOR, the big twist that you [player character] are secretly an amnesiac and brainwashed Darth Revan [big bad] is fairly easy to guess from fairly early on [by the fact that nobody will give Darth Revan pronouns in talking about the backstory] but is fun when it happens; the biggest part of the surprise (to me) was how much all the Jedi were gaslighting you about it, which I don't think works necessarily but is interesting! It's also fun to run around afterwards declaring "I AM DARTH REVAN" and have everybody else that you encounter laugh in your face.

However not much in the actual game's endgame leans into the identity stuff in a particularly interesting way, IMO -- or at least not if you're light side; the dark side ending maybe works better in that way but I think that's bad storytelling, frankly. Both should be equally interesting! But there's no narrative oomph there and also very little narrative nuance or middle path to tread between cartoonish evil and strict law-abiding virtue. As always when I'm playing a Bioware game that is not DAII, I miss Purple Hawke.

In Argylle, on the other hand, the big twist that the heroine is secretly an amnesiac and brainwashed 'superspy' -- I use the term 'superspy' in quotes because these people are cartoon action heroes and literally nothing they do bears any resemblance to anything one would do in espionage -- I did not see coming until like five minutes before it happened. I don't know that it makes it better, necessarily. Because it is a movie, and not a game where you-the-player are constantly asked to make a choice between Basic Good Actions and Basic Bad Actions, it also does a better job at keeping up narrative tension around our heroine's motivations and alignment. It does not do an interesting job at generating any psychological depth or interest around the integration of her pre- and post-amnesia personalities. Nor does KOTOR, really. Neither of these media properties are really set up to tell that story well. But at least in KOTOR you can bring your own imagination to that integration ... I started writing this out without really knowing where I was going to place the point but I think I've got to give it to: KOTOR!

If my math is right, on my completely objective and balanced scale, KOTOR is trouncing Argylle 6 to 3, which honestly seems about right. I really can't emphasize enough how amazingly absurd the ice skating scene is, though. Worth the price of admission!

Comments

[sovay]

Also, the heroine has been subconsciously writing herself into her books as Henry Cavill, and her love interest as John Cena, so one can infer that she may have some gender stuff going on and also that in the text-within-a-text Henry Cavill and John Cena are intended to kiss at some point.

I'm sorry that doesn't happen. It would be the first interesting thing I'd heard about Argylle.

(I think Bill Pullman looks like just some guy; it is a major point of his casting in Lost Highway (1997).)

[skygiants]

I'm also very sorry! The setup for it is right there! But much about Argylle involves throwing out elements that could be interesting if it chose to engage with them in any way at all and then zooming enthusiastically past them because something else shiny caught its attention.

(I probably ought to see Lost Highway at some point; my formative Bill Pullmans were his roles in While You Were Sleeping, which I think points towards my point, and Spaceballs, in which I have to admit his role as a discount Han Solo argues a bit more against it.)

[rmc28]

Is the liquid petroleum on ice? Is it on land but meant to be ice-like in properties? Does it at any point go on fire so she is ice skating through flames?

[skygiants]

The petroleum is in a big oil refinery ship; it is meant to be ice-like in properties; they spend enough time spouting DIRE warnings about the risks of explosives near petroleum that I spent the entire scene on tenterhooks waiting for a spark from her skates to set the entire thing on fire so that she would have to ice skate through flames and then was frankly quite disappointed that it didn't happen --

[sushiflop]

I'll just wait for the gifs.

[lokifan]

My exact reaction, yes.

A delightful post :D

[skygiants]

so reasonable and rational

[likeadeuce]

Hahaha, I knew the twist in Argylle, which I do not think I will ever see, from listening to various podcasts explain it. I subsequently explained it to my brother, who is too busy with small children to see movies he's not truly excited about (I'm taking him to 'Dune 2' on Sunday because his wife wanted him to have an afternoon off as a thank you for letting her buy a new goat, this is not a joke, this is very emblematic of their relationship.) Anyway, I am now mildly surprised that when I told him this he didn't immediately say 'Oh, they pulled a KOTOR,' because he has definitely played that. I'm guessing 'sleep deprived parent of a toddler brain' might have prevented him from making the connection because otherwise it feels too distinctive to be a coincidence.

In any case, thank you for the entertaining double recap, I will have to look for that ice skating scene!

[skygiants]

We'd planned to see Argylle a few weeks ago, and then it actually came out and got an emphatic zero stars in our local paper, and we were like "well ... we could change our plans .... or we could gamble on this being the fun kind of trainwreck," which it broadly speaking was, I think! Mostly, probably. I hope your brother and his wife are enjoying the new goat.

[alias_sqbr]

This is an amazing post. I really should finish KOTOR one day.

Also I personally think Bill Pullman is legit hot but I appear to be in the minority.

[skygiants]

I'm so terrible at actually finishing video games so I'm very proud of myself for actually finishing KOTOR, even though frankly the narrative reward for getting through the annoying final fight was not very high ....

And I mean to be clear I Do think that Bill Pullman is cute but to me it's in a normal-guy way, which adds to the appeal rather than detracting from it! That said I think right now we're fully split down the middle here on Hollywood Hot/Just A Guy and genarti is certainly glad to have the company on her side of the camp.

[alias_sqbr]

I guess he's like... Hollywood's idea of "just a normal guy" hot, but that's not the same as actual normal-yet-hot guys. Like Meg Ryan being described as "the girl next door" hot back in the day.

[pauraque]

I am definitely not going to see Argylle, but you have reminded me to add KOTOR to my hopelessly long list of old games I want to play, so thank you for that!

[skygiants]

You're so welcome, I hope you enjoy it if you get round to it!

[brownbetty]

I worry about their little joints too

[skygiants]

:(((((( concern about that cat having a good time on his adventures. Maybe he enjoyed the weightlessness of the Giant Trampoline Experience.

[davidgillon]

the heroine is secretly an amnesiac and brainwashed 'superspy'
scene in which the heroine straps knives to her feet and ice skates through a pool of liquid petroleum in order to murder her way through twenty goons.

They're channeling The Long Kiss Goodnight so hard, though there amnesiac 'superspy' Charlie straps ice skates to her feet to skate across the lake and uses a pistol to kill the three bad guys chasing her friend's car. Oddly enough that also features Samuel L Jackson, this time as the world weary private eye she hires to figure out who she is.

[skygiants]

you know, I have not seen The Long Kiss Goodnight but I would bet you cash money that is intended to be a direct reference, and now I feel like I have a whole other axis on which to think about Argylle, so thank you!

[davidgillon]

If you want another one, the plot sounds like what you'd get if your elevator pitch was crossing The Long Kiss Goodnight with Romancing the Stone.

[skygiants]

I did feel very confident they were also aiming to evoke Romancing the Stone!

[cofax7]

I don't suppose you were playing KOTOR because A More Civilized Age was doing a playthrough? If so, cool! If not, and you're interested, there's about 12 hours of podcast discussion available to you if that's the sort of thing you're interested in. (It's a Star Wars podcast but they pivoted to KOTOR during the writers/actors strike, since it's not struck work.)

[skygiants]

lol, I am indeed a More Civilized Age listener and that definitely was a large part of the reason that I finally remembered to get around to it! (I'd bought it a few years ago when it came out for Android, but at the time it didn't work well on my phone and then I'd forgotten about it.) I have for sure been enjoying the podcast episodes.

[passingbuzzards]

Ahaha I first played KOTOR around the time it came out, which is to say when I was in elementary/middle school, so for me the Revan plot twist absolutely WAS an earth-shattering reveal and I remember it fondly. :-D Also it’s true, KOTOR is so bad at romances, isn’t it, they’re all so equally unappealing! But yes, I appreciated the Juhani romance subplot for existing too. <3

If you play KOTOR 2 I would recommend playing the version with the big Steam patch, I’ve still never gotten around to playing that version in full but iirc it restores a whole bunch of endgame content that they cut at the last second because they were pushed to release before they were ready! I suspect it fleshes out the ending a lot, I remember thinking it felt incomplete in the original game. (KOTOR 2 also has a rather more complex story ethically, I think, than KOTOR, so you may perhaps enjoy this! I remember finding it variously frustrating and satisfying but I definitely enjoyed it a lot back in the day either way, plus I think I did replay a good chunk of it in college.)

[ETA: It does however absolutely suffer from the same issue of "you have to go all Light Side or all Dark Side with no in between or the game will punish you by locking you out of certain mechanics and story choices," MADDENING, Mass Effect suffers from the exact same issue because of crucial story lockouts being tied to Renegade/Paragon points (though importing a save from somebody who went all Renegade or all Paragon in the first game does ameliorate this somewhat), BioWare RPGs have SUCH a problem with this! Completely agree that DA2 handled Character Choices way better and that's why it's the best-written game they've ever made probably]

P.S. Please allow me to offer you the only KOTOR meme saved on my laptop:

[skygiants]

ahh I am so glad you got to experience the Revan twist in its full mind-blowing glory! and this is good to know, I definitely do want to try KOTOR 2 at some point in the not too distant future. Before starting on this I think I'd generally speaking heard/absorbed a lot more about KOTOR 2 than KOTOR itself so I am under the impression (true or not) that KOTOR 2 takes up more rent-free space in people's brains ...

[DA2 IS THE BEST WRITTEN GAME THEY'VE EVER MADE!!! no, that's not fair, I've played very few Bioware games relatively speaking, quite possibly they've made a better one, but of all the ones I've played it's the one I had the most fun with. The narrative is sharp and concise in a very compelling way, the gameplay is not yet so open-world that it starts to get unfocused and intimidating for me, and most importantly Purple Hawke is there! anyway it feels especially egregious with KOTOR to me because Revan narratively feels built to be an interestingly gray character -- betrayed by the Dark Side and the Light Side both & trying to find a new path -- and the game just does not let you lean into that in any way even though you've got several companions in your party like Jolee and Canderous who do and can! FRUSTRATING.]

ajsdlk;fdj THANK YOU THAT'S BEAUTIFUL TO ME

[schneefink]

All I knew about KOTOR was that it turns out the player is Darth Revan; for some reason I thought this meant the character would eventually become Darth Revan. The amnesia makes more sense for an RPG that gives you plot-relevant choices!

[skygiants]

Yeah, it's not particularly subtle but it is pretty fun as a big mid-game shift. The call was coming from inside the house all along! Extra funny because you find out that you previously were the literal Dark Lord and literally only one person in your party expresses any concern about this, everyone else is like "shrug, you seem great now, I'm sure it's fine"

[thistleingrey]

I am delighted by these reminders of KOTOR. By the time I quit playing it, I had to quit because I'd accidentally under-skilled my rogue-ish player character, and the final boss battle was a lot of defense and no effective offense, no matter how I tried to tweak my strategy; I couldn't finish the game's main arc. I even replayed from my earliest remaining saved game (which was more than halfway through) and tried to make fightier choices. It felt like a metaphor 15+ years ago, so the use of KOTOR as a weird foil for a different story seems quite apt to me, seriously!

[skygiants]

It feels like accidentally building a character who literally could not complete the main fight would be so easy to do!! I also had a rogue-ish player character and the ONLY thing that saved me was that after a certain point I just started letting the game auto-level me up because I couldn't be bothered trying to figure out my own skill-builds (a thing I'm also very bad at). I see what you mean about the metaphor ...

[quinnish]

I don't understand how this absolutely scathing review has made me want to see Argylle, a movie I had never heard of before. What even, brain?

(Somewhat untrue; you're listed SEVERAL fic avenues I find really intriguing and that's probably a lot of it right there.)

This was such a fun comparison post!

[skygiants]

frankly, it's like, I don't recommend it, I don't think it's good, but did I enjoy myself watching it? absolutely! so go to town! mine that rich vein of fic potential!

[chestnut_pod]

This is a very amusing format for a review; I must try it sometime!

[skygiants]

every so often I walk out of a reading/watching/etc experience & by sheer coincidence of proximity find myself earnestly drawing a red string murder map between two things that absolutely were not intended to be connected ... I think last time this happened was when I read Le Carre's Our Game and Lewis' Til We Have Face one after the other, but in that case both those things are extremely good and I would not dream of pitting two bad bitches against each other, so to speak.