(no subject)

[skygiants]

Ever since I heard there was going to be a new Cordelia Vorkosigan book I've had an itch to reread Cordelia's Honor. I don't have a particularly strong investment in the new book (apparently there were some people who already knew Jole was a character in previous books? I was ... not one of them) but I'm certainly invested in Cordelia Vorkosigan!

As I said on Tumblr, I'd forgotten how much Shards of Honor is one long exercise in:

Cordelia: I found this cute murderer in the enemy army and I’m going to keep him

Cordelia’s friends, colleagues, neighbors, certain constant readers: Cordelia no

Cordelia: CORDELIA YES

For the record, by 'certain constant readers,' I mean myself at the age of almost thirty (as opposed to myself at the age of twenty-three, who apparently didn't bat an eye. This is when booklogging through the years starts to get fun.) But, like. In hindsight, we know it's going to work out fine! Three cheers for the most stable marriage on Barrayar. In present-sight, "Well, yes, his last marriage ended with him straight-up murdering two people in a jealous rage, buuuuut he felt really bad about it afterwards!" is not really a statement to inspire confidence. Were I advising Cordelia on her romantic options, I TOO WOULD BE QUITE CONCERNED. Maybe instead try a dating website?

(Other things you notice, reading Shards of Honor at the age of almost thirty: Cordelia like "I was afraid my opportunities for romance and children were OVER. No one will believe such a middle-aged officer could be bowled over by love! At my age!! OF THIRTY-THREE!!!" OK, maybe, if you didn't live in a society where people regularly freeze their eggs and live to 100 or more ... I mean, I love you and I get it, but.)

I mean, I do then appreciate how much of Barrayar is Cordelia waffling on the verge of "...I've made a huge mistake." Shards is deeply enjoyable on the id level, but Barrayar is a much more interesting book because it's in many ways about the consequences of eloping to live happily after and have babies in a culture that you don't understand and disagree with on like a million fundamental levels. This is an interesting and compelling story even if I happen to disagree with Lois McMaster Bujold (or at least the Lois McMaster Bujold of 1991) on several fundamental levels as well, like "the ultimate end of every heterosexual love story is children" (nope!) and the Clan of the Cave Bear logic of "the guy might think it was rape but if the girl thought it was consensual then it's pretty much fine, let's just hope these crazy kids work past this misunderstanding!" (oh, Kou and Drou. Oh .... Kou and Drou.)

On the other hand, one thing I fundamentally agree with Lois McMaster Bujold on is that it's important to talk about different kinds of female strength besides leading raids and ordering Bothari to execute major military figures. (I mean, I also appreciate that Cordelia herself is a female soldier whose soldiering expertise and identity has basically nothing to do with physical combat.) But yes, thank you, Bujold, for the focus on Kareen and Alys Vorpatril and their particular brands of heroism, much appreciated! In general and also in the specific that I love Alys Vorpatril and swear my allegiance to her forever.

Speaking of: I really did not intend to launch on a massive Vorkosigan reread, I really just wanted to read Cordelia's Honor, but now I'm started it might be hard stopping. WE'LL SEE.

Comments

[intothespin]

Alys/Simon 4eva!!!

Seriously, the healthiest relationship on that planet.

I also had no recollection of Jole.

Eta: It's more like "I found this cute *war criminal*".

[skygiants]

I LOVE ALYS/SIMON LIKE BURNING. Every so often I go into the AO3 tag, and look at what's on offer and pretend like I might possibly read anything besides Alys/Simon fic, but it never actually happens.

Murderer and war criminal! I mean, even granting "I didn't mean to execute the Komarran parliament" still leaves "sure, I mean, I guess this large-scale assassination attempt in the form of a war against another country will have acceptable collateral damage ..."

[batyatoon]

I ... didn't get the sense Aral found the collateral damage acceptable at all, though? WHICH DOES NOT MEAN HE ISN'T A WAR CRIMINAL but he was nine counties over from being okay with it.

[vass]

Looking back, I am struck by just how many 'he's not a rapist/attempted rapist -- or, okay, he kind of is but he is still a good guy and there are totally mitigating circumstances!' characters Bujold has.

Bothari, Kou, Mark, possibly Aral depending on what exactly Ges did put him up to before they split up, Ivan...

[skygiants]

Yyyyyep. I still have no idea how to feel about ... everything with Bothari, other than uncomfortable. Ivan I just sort of mentally retcon out because otherwise I can't even deal. And then ... Mark. Oh, Mark. Mirror Dance makes me uncomfortable for like thirty different reasons; even at the age of twenty-three I was like, "KAREEN BABY MAYBE YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER THIS."

[vass]

Individually, I can kind of roll with any one of those (although Ivan's harder because there is no acknowledgement at all later in canon that that's what he used to do. Like, with the other characters at least there is some textual acknowledgement that this shit is fucked UP) but in the aggregate... damn.

[ceitfianna]

Yeah, I think that's why I find him weird to try and RP, because I like the good parts of him but other times I'm like, stop, Ivan, just stop. Mentally reconning is a powerful thing especially in a series like this. I appreciate the places she's willing to go but don't always want to go with her.

[alias_sqbr]

...I'm older than Cordelia in Cordelia's Honour? o.O

[rymenhild]

Damn, so am I.

[rymenhild]

Also, would someone explain to me how Cordelia has an advanced science degree (presumably corresponding to a Ph.D., given Enrique's comments in Civil Campaign) and years of experience in Betan Survey sufficient to rise to captaincy at age 33?

[genarti]

Seriously! I always figured her for at least 40ish. I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around her as 33, and I don't think it's just because that's my age.

[skygiants]

I mean ... maybe there's a lot about the Betan work-study system that we don't understand ....

[skygiants]

I mean, I get that 33 was probably older than an average female protagonist in the 1980s, but nonetheless.

[starlady]

People who read the fic knew that Jole was a character. I don't think anyone else did.

The collected edition is the only Barrayar book I've read, and I'm not sure how much interest I have in the rest if they're about Miles. Worth it y/n?

[likeadeuce]

Aren't you Team Sarcastic Failbot though?

[skygiants]

Hmmmm. I would say yes, to varying degrees. Bujold is pretty compellingly readable. And Memory is just a really good book, but probably less so if you don't have all the context of the stuff that came before, and Civil Campaign is the kind of Heyer novel in space I always want and rarely get.

[sovay]

People who read the fic knew that Jole was a character. I don't think anyone else did.

Where did he originate and why did fandom notice him?

[ceitfianna]

I don't remember Jole at all and yeah, I haven't reread Shards of Honor in a long time due to all the oh this is uncomfortable parts. I mean they're there in all the books but I feel like they're kind of more concentrated in the beginning.

[skygiants]

Yeaaaah. I mean, some of it is the eighties, and some of it is the influence of a specific kind of romance novel trope, and some of it is "ah, there's your id, Lois McMaster Bujold! Hello!"

[likeadeuce]

I encourage this reread!

[skygiants]

I have so much other stuff to read though!

[sovay]

No one will believe such a middle-aged officer could be bowled over by love! At my age!! OF THIRTY-THREE!!!

Huh. I think I had forgotten that part. Doesn't her culture have creche babies, so why does age affect childbearing in the first place?

Shards of Honor and Barrayar are the only Bujold novels I've read, which is why I'm planning to read Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen, even if I have no idea who Jole is. It is an oversimplification to say that I bounced off the first Miles novel because it wasn't about Cordelia, but not much of one. You are reminding me that I've wanted to re-read Shards of Honor for several yeras now, though, because everything I can remember about the plot is amazingly id-driven and fic-like.

[edit] the Clan of the Cave Bear logic of "the guy might think it was rape but if the girl thought it was consensual then it's pretty much fine, let's just hope these crazy kids work past this misunderstanding!" (oh, Kou and Drou. Oh .... Kou and Drou.)

I'm working from early high school memories at the latest, but I thought it was fairly well signaled to the reader of The Clan of the Cave Bear that the repeated sex Broud has with Ayla is rape, despite their existing in a culture with no concept of consent—it's done to hurt and punish her, to the point where even the rest of the patriarchal Clan begin to notice. Unless we're talking about other instances of coerced or dubious sexual relations in the book which I have forgotten, in which case please disillusion me. (Not to hijack this conversation to a different region of the id entirely.)

[skygiants]

I mean, I think honestly what's happening is she had a bad breakup and she's in a self-despair spiral of "TRUE LOVE WILL NEVER HAPPEN FOR MEEEEE, FOREVER ALONE," which is totally understandable. What's less understandable is the bit at the end with the officer who's like "well yes we MIGHT buy the 'bowled over by love' explanation if you were spring chickens, but you, ma'am, are a responsible middle-aged adult! Middle-aged people never make stupid romantic decisions! BRAINWASHING IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION."

Shards of Honor is SO VERY id-ficcy, in the best "LOVED I NOT HONOR MORE" kind of way. All actual practical considerations aside, it's pretty amazing.

I am actually being unfair to Clan of the Cave Bear the book itself, where the rape is pretty well signaled as rape -- I'm thinking of a bit in one of the sequels where (if I remember right) there's a Big Misunderstanding in which Ayla's True Love rapes her out of jealousy and then spends the rest of the book too guilty and angsty about it to talk to her, which is eventually resolved at the end when she's like "no, it's fine, I super wanted to have sex with you! You should have known from my body language that I was into it!" WELL IN THAT CASE.

[jinian]

I get what you're saying about the pervasiveness of rape in these books, but I've always read Kou and Drou as a thing that was entirely consensual in the moment. He just goes into a self-hating tailspin afterward because of ridiculous social mores. (we had sex and I liked it but I couldn't tell if she liked it, I love her so she's a good girl and good girls can't like sex, I AM A MONSTER) Having chosen not to sleep with a high-school friend I was into because I was about 90% sure that would happen, I find it totally believable!

[ETA] Cordelia wouldn't have that frame of reference, but she would think Barrayaran gender relations were toxic and Barrayarans were twits, so I think it holds together all right. I would bet money that Bujold has seen guys go off like this, though.

[skygiants]

I think it's possible (and certainly more comfortable) to read it that way, but -- I mean, what Kou says is, "it was the first time I’d been functional since I was hit by the nerve disruptor. I thought it might be another year, or forever—I panicked, I just panicked. I … took her … right there. Never asked, never said a word." Drou says, "I was so happy for him, so excited, I didn’t care how much it hurt." Cordelia interprets this as 'she was consenting with body language, but he wasn't even paying enough attention to notice that she was consenting because he was too intent on his own gratification,' and regardless of how you feel about nonverbal consent, Cordelia's reading seems pretty accurate to me. Cordelia's much more OK with it than I am.

Cordelia also says to Aral a few minutes later, "Good heavens, I think he wanted to be a rapist" (in order to feel like he's got his masculinity back or whatever.) This I think there's less textual evidence to show her reading is right, so there's more room to read it as her interpretation, but she thinks so, and she's still MUCH MORE OKAY WITH THAT than I am. @__@