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Mar. 4th, 2019 10:35 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
skygiantsThe thing about Naomi Mitchison's To the Chapel Perilous is that Naomi Mitchison clearly knows her Arthuriana inside and out, and has decided to do some wonderfully weird and meta things with it, and I don't understand or agree with all of what she is doing but overall I'm extremely here for it!
The plot: Lienors and Dalyn are the ace reporters covering the Grail Quest for (respectively) the Camelot Chronicle and the Northern Pict. The Camelot Chronicle is run by Merlin and heavily funded by Church dollars, although Lienors herself secretly likes to go hang out with the White Lady and the Wild Hunt in her off-hours; the Northern Pict is run by 'Lord Horny' (Satan? Cernunnos? both? UNCLEAR) and has a strong pro-Orkney slant. And Dalyn and Lienors would quite like to report the truth, ideally, and, you know, they're doing their best, but there's the matter of the sponsors and the readership and the editors are going to chop it all up in post anyway ...
After seeing a collection of knights each come out carrying different maybe-Grails, Lienors and Dalyn make the executive decision to simplify the story for the readers and write up nice, uncontroversial Galahad as the Official Grail Achiever in their reports. The rest of the book consists of their attempts to follow up on the Grail story, while all the pieces are beginning to line up around them for the fall of Camelot.
Mitchison is interested in: irreconcilable and undeniable simultaneous truths, the public and private faces of major political figures, red carpet reporting, the ties between Arthurian legends and various early religious traditions, the way commercial news impacts public policy, journalistic ethics in wartime, whether the existence of a Cauldron of Plenty renders the human condition meaningless, and cute romances between rival reporters (extra cute in a when you learn that her daughter and son-in-law worked as reporters for rival papers! MITCHISON SHIPS IT.)
Takes on major Arthurian figures include:
King Arthur: mostly an offscreen cipher, which is extra interesting as this book comes out pretty much right in the middle of T.H. White's intermittent publications of bits and pieces of The Once and Future King, which spends a lot of time working as an in-depth study of Arthur's Character; I think the one thing we factually get about him is he's way more invested in Lancelot than in Guinevere
Lancelot: Everyone Loves Lancelot, Including Lienors (But In Like A Hot Celebrity Way, You Know)
Guinevere: Dignified, Sad And Mad. While Mitchison's take on the trio is disappointingly non-threesome, I like her Guinevere quite a lot. As does Lienors, who ships Lancelot and Guinevere so much that she ends up accidentally kick-starting the downfall of Camelot.
Sir Bors: just a nice man with a nice farm and also maybe a holy grail? but, like, a very domestic one.
Sir Percival: owner of the least domestic grail, constantly code-switching between Peredur the Extremely Pagan Wild Man of the Woods, and Percival the Extremely Holy Christian Knight; makes unwanted passes at girls at parties.
Galahad's Mom Elaine: Mean And Christian; presides over both Lancelot's Grail, which heals the sick, and Galahad's Grail, which raises the dead. Not unexpected, as even the most Revisionist Arthurianas tend to have a hard time finding a flattering take on Galahad's Mom Elaine, although I'm sure someone will attempt it someday.
Gareth: has a larger-than-cameo appearance to be kind and noble and make Dalyn feel a bit guilty about his trashy coverage of the Orkney Grail (a very Mabinogian Cauldron of Plenty). Has anyone in the history of Arthuriana ever written an unflattering Gareth? I mean, he is pretty uniformly a sweetheart, so I get it, I also would not write an unflattering Gareth, but I do wonder if we're due for the first negative take.
(Sidenote: I don't know why you would name a character Lienors Blanchemains and then not associate them with Gareth in any way whatsoever. I trust Naomi Mitchison to know what she was doing and have a reason for this but I'm still baffled!)
Sir Palomides: does not really show up in the story enough to get a personality but I was just excited to see him at all, especially since he DOES get a Grail (which is not much officially reported because Lienors and Dalyn sadly agree that their papers' backers would not be happy with coverage of a foreign knight getting a grail)
Sir Kay: appears once in the novel at a joust and is then immediately called away again to fix a backed-up drain, which is exactly as it should be.
Anyway, I am now all fired up about Arthurian meta, please tell me:
- your favorite weird work of Arthurian fiction
- your best-beloved Arthurian character
- your most important Unpopular Arthurian Opinion/Hot Take
Also if you have any good recs for interesting Arthurian scholarship, please let me know! I now desperately want to read a compare-contrast between The Once And Future King and To The Chapel Perilous focusing on Arthuriana as political allegory in postwar Britain, so ... you know .... if you've got one up your sleeve .......
The plot: Lienors and Dalyn are the ace reporters covering the Grail Quest for (respectively) the Camelot Chronicle and the Northern Pict. The Camelot Chronicle is run by Merlin and heavily funded by Church dollars, although Lienors herself secretly likes to go hang out with the White Lady and the Wild Hunt in her off-hours; the Northern Pict is run by 'Lord Horny' (Satan? Cernunnos? both? UNCLEAR) and has a strong pro-Orkney slant. And Dalyn and Lienors would quite like to report the truth, ideally, and, you know, they're doing their best, but there's the matter of the sponsors and the readership and the editors are going to chop it all up in post anyway ...
After seeing a collection of knights each come out carrying different maybe-Grails, Lienors and Dalyn make the executive decision to simplify the story for the readers and write up nice, uncontroversial Galahad as the Official Grail Achiever in their reports. The rest of the book consists of their attempts to follow up on the Grail story, while all the pieces are beginning to line up around them for the fall of Camelot.
Mitchison is interested in: irreconcilable and undeniable simultaneous truths, the public and private faces of major political figures, red carpet reporting, the ties between Arthurian legends and various early religious traditions, the way commercial news impacts public policy, journalistic ethics in wartime, whether the existence of a Cauldron of Plenty renders the human condition meaningless, and cute romances between rival reporters (extra cute in a when you learn that her daughter and son-in-law worked as reporters for rival papers! MITCHISON SHIPS IT.)
Takes on major Arthurian figures include:
King Arthur: mostly an offscreen cipher, which is extra interesting as this book comes out pretty much right in the middle of T.H. White's intermittent publications of bits and pieces of The Once and Future King, which spends a lot of time working as an in-depth study of Arthur's Character; I think the one thing we factually get about him is he's way more invested in Lancelot than in Guinevere
Lancelot: Everyone Loves Lancelot, Including Lienors (But In Like A Hot Celebrity Way, You Know)
Guinevere: Dignified, Sad And Mad. While Mitchison's take on the trio is disappointingly non-threesome, I like her Guinevere quite a lot. As does Lienors, who ships Lancelot and Guinevere so much that she ends up accidentally kick-starting the downfall of Camelot.
Sir Bors: just a nice man with a nice farm and also maybe a holy grail? but, like, a very domestic one.
Sir Percival: owner of the least domestic grail, constantly code-switching between Peredur the Extremely Pagan Wild Man of the Woods, and Percival the Extremely Holy Christian Knight; makes unwanted passes at girls at parties.
Galahad's Mom Elaine: Mean And Christian; presides over both Lancelot's Grail, which heals the sick, and Galahad's Grail, which raises the dead. Not unexpected, as even the most Revisionist Arthurianas tend to have a hard time finding a flattering take on Galahad's Mom Elaine, although I'm sure someone will attempt it someday.
Gareth: has a larger-than-cameo appearance to be kind and noble and make Dalyn feel a bit guilty about his trashy coverage of the Orkney Grail (a very Mabinogian Cauldron of Plenty). Has anyone in the history of Arthuriana ever written an unflattering Gareth? I mean, he is pretty uniformly a sweetheart, so I get it, I also would not write an unflattering Gareth, but I do wonder if we're due for the first negative take.
(Sidenote: I don't know why you would name a character Lienors Blanchemains and then not associate them with Gareth in any way whatsoever. I trust Naomi Mitchison to know what she was doing and have a reason for this but I'm still baffled!)
Sir Palomides: does not really show up in the story enough to get a personality but I was just excited to see him at all, especially since he DOES get a Grail (which is not much officially reported because Lienors and Dalyn sadly agree that their papers' backers would not be happy with coverage of a foreign knight getting a grail)
Sir Kay: appears once in the novel at a joust and is then immediately called away again to fix a backed-up drain, which is exactly as it should be.
Anyway, I am now all fired up about Arthurian meta, please tell me:
- your favorite weird work of Arthurian fiction
- your best-beloved Arthurian character
- your most important Unpopular Arthurian Opinion/Hot Take
Also if you have any good recs for interesting Arthurian scholarship, please let me know! I now desperately want to read a compare-contrast between The Once And Future King and To The Chapel Perilous focusing on Arthuriana as political allegory in postwar Britain, so ... you know .... if you've got one up your sleeve .......
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Date: 2019-03-04 03:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-04 03:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2019-03-04 05:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-04 05:37 pm (UTC)(Surely SOMEONE out there in the wide, wide world is nursing a deep hatred of virtuous young Sir Gareth. I'm waiting!)
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Date: 2019-03-04 05:56 pm (UTC)- Most beloved Arthurian character - Arthur. Yeah, even in the best of adaptations he tends to be a stick figure, but I like the straight arrow heroes.
Hot take: There will never be a good King Arthur film that isn't a satire (Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a great film about Arthur and more accurate than most about the era, but it's not exactly epic.)
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:24 pm (UTC)I like Arthur a lot, but I like a very specific pattern of Arthur that was described to me by T.H. White and I'm always a little saddened and betrayed when I encounter Arthurs who don't fit that pattern at all, which unfortunately is most of them.
I heard ... The Kid Who Would Be King .... is surprisingly non-terrible ......... um.
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-04 06:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:06 pm (UTC)My absolute favorite Arthurian fanfic, which I will never stop reccing to everyone, is The Green Year, which is canon-divergence Gawain and Green Knight + T.H. White and OT3s all over the place and Gareth LIVES, SO THERE.
(I think the reason no one writes anything with mean!Gareth is that honestly I would close up the book right there and never come back to it, and they know there are people like me out there :P )
But I am sort of surprised at Elaine of Corbenic becoming mean, really? I guess because I've been thoroughly imprinted by T.H. White not thinking she was mean at all (but kind of pathetic). (Also I then wrote clone!AU where Elaine of Corbenic was the hero (and not pathetic as in White), so, um, there's that.)
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:29 pm (UTC)(IT'S POSSIBLE. I just find it interesting that Arthurian canon diverges so wildly and yet, on this one point, all divergent sides agree both in- and out-of-text: Gareth is a sweet child who must be protected at all costs!)
HOW DID I MISS YOUR CLONE ELAINES
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-04 06:39 pm (UTC)(nota bene: i have never read any Cherryh, though I have been meaning to for some years)
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:31 pm (UTC)Yaaaaay!
Sir Kay: appears once in the novel at a joust and is then immediately called away again to fix a backed-up drain, which is exactly as it should be.
I had forgotten this and strongly approve.
I will try to think if I've seen a non-terrible version of Elaine. I feel statistically the answer has to be yes, but I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.
(Did you find a print copy or an e-book? I used to have a very nice paperback, but then I lent it to someone and have never seen it since and have regretted it ever since. If it's back in print again, I wish to remedy this state of affairs.)
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Date: 2019-03-04 06:43 pm (UTC)(Oh, I cheated and ordered a used copy online as a holiday present for
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Date: 2019-03-04 08:45 pm (UTC)My favorite Arthurian character is Kay! I used to be a put-upon stage manager, so... okay, I guess that's sufficient explanation. What's the book that's all about everyone being mean to Kay? I need to read it.
My Unpopular Arthurian Opinion is that everyone is unfair to Kay. ;)
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:01 pm (UTC)My best beloved Unpopular Character is Gaheris, tbh, mostly because of the aforementioned book. One of baby me's first ships!
ETA: I had stronger feelings about Kay than I thought so I'm adding him to my best beloved Unpopular Characters. MY POOR PUT-UPON SON.
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:03 pm (UTC)I have been Team Gawain ever since I read Roger Lancelyn Green’s Arthur stories as a child, and while you’re collecting Gawain and the Green Knight fanfics have torch’s lovely bittersweet story sweetly & steadily.
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:43 pm (UTC)...I had no idea that Pamela Dean had written the Arthurian office sitcom of my heart but I guess now I'm going to have to track THAT down (as well as go read all of these good Gawain fanfic recs!)
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:39 pm (UTC)I think I tend to go with the Mabinogion for my favorite weird Arthuriana (of course Peredur makes passes at all the girls! every woman he meets is described as "the most beautiful woman ever!").
My favorite Arthuriana that literally no one has heard of is a musical called "Tapestry: the Knight's Quest" written for a youth community theater group that my sister was in. It's an ensemble musical featuring Gawain, Gareth as Beaumains, plus squires + love interests vs. variously color-coded knights ("Don't tell me -- you must be the Black Knight of the Black Lands!" "How could you tell?") plus Morgan le Fay.
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Date: 2019-03-04 09:44 pm (UTC)....that musical sounds AMAZING and also quite a lot like the King Arthur story I was trying to write when I was a teenager, I'm so glad you got to experience it!
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Date: 2019-03-04 11:49 pm (UTC)Favourite weird work of Arthurian fiction is High Noon Over Camelot, a space western concept album adaptation (with canon Guinevere/Lancelot/Arthur).
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:06 am (UTC)... well brb I'm just going to go listen to all of High Noon Over Camelot now ...
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Date: 2019-03-05 01:11 am (UTC)My formative Arthuriana was the Squire's Tales series, which isn't that weird but did give me some idiosyncratic character preferences. (I think I would have liked Gawain and Kay anyway, but that series made me love Dinadan as well. It also left me profoundly annoyed by Tristan and Galahad, and I think it's partially responsible for my general Lancelot dislike even though its own Lancelot ends up being sympathetic.)
And of course that has one of the very few unflattering Gareths to be found, so it surprised me that he's generally the Orkney brother everyone likes! (Gerald Morris's favorite is Gawain; he also likes Gaheris, Dinadan and Kay--which obviously rubbed off on me. His Lancelot is introduced as the most annoying knight on the planet and then goes on to have a surprisingly interesting arc; unfortunately he is never shippable with Arthur, and he and Guinevere only really become sympathetic after breaking up.)
That series does also have Palomides (in The Ballad of Sir Dinadan), although I think he's spelled differently there. I liked him.
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:12 am (UTC)I do love how Lancelot portrayals are pretty much split down the middle between people who take the French Ballads Party Line (Lancelot is tormented, but so dreamy!) and people who take the Orkney Party Line (Lancelot is the most annoying knight in the whole world, why is he even IN this myth-tradition.)
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Date: 2019-03-05 02:17 am (UTC)Aleta is delightful and badass in that particularly 1940s way where she carries a knife in her garter and occasionally manages to escape lower-tier baddies on her own, but also spends a lot of time In Peril because Val (his nickname is Val) needs the opportunity to be heroic.
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-05 02:53 am (UTC)I've not read many Arthurian things, while seeing bits and pieces of them all over. Hexwood is definitely the weirdest, with the Fionavar books distant second. (This is another reason I need to reread The Dragon Waiting. It has a Peredur, and I hadn't met the name elsewhere before).
Although now I think about it, my grandfather and I did try to write a semi-Arthurian novel once. We sent chapters of it backwards and forwards without discussing the plot with each other at all. He had read a lot more Carlos Castaneda than either of us had ever read Arthurian anything; our King Arthur was a failed stage magician and emanation of the dread god Moloch, brought forward through time by Merlin to fight against the dread god Moloch (who had nuclear launch codes) while egged on by various other wise and pseudo-wise emanations of Merlin, one of whom was the aunt of some gemstone destiny child protagonists whose function we could never quite discover.
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:18 am (UTC)(I forgot The Dragon Waiting had any Arthuriana in it! Too busy being distracted by Richard III.)
and omg, that's ADORABLE. How many chapters did you get into? (Obviously you predicted the future existence of Steven Universe!)
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Date: 2019-03-05 03:26 am (UTC)But I still count it as Arthurian. :P
My best-beloved Arthurian character, is, of course, Cavall. (No, but, my favorite character doesn't remain steady between adaptations; I guess I'm just easily led. I do have a fondness for Elaine of Corbenic too, though! I had a painting of her I did in high school hanging on my wall for a very long time. I always felt like the bed trick was a lot more defensible when you're disguising yourself as someone else's wife: after all, all he'd have to do is behave honorably and it wouldn't've worked.)
I feel like I got out most of all of my Unpopular Hot Takes in my previous post, which you read, but, okay, how about: At least the first couple series of BBC Merlin is actually a really interesting adaptation from the perspective of deliberately trying to use sources other than the de Troyes/Malory/White tradition as your main inspiration.
(Meanwhile, this entire thread is doing terrible things to my to-read list.)
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:09 am (UTC)Oh wow, there's something I haven't thought about in a while.
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Date: 2019-03-05 03:37 am (UTC)(There was also a great fic for it this Yuletide.)
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:17 am (UTC)When I first read "Winter Solstice, Camelot Station", there was an unintended extra layer of weirdness, because up until then I knew Ford mostly if not entirely as a science fiction writer (and, for that matter, "King Arthur but in space" was something I'd encountered before), so I was expecting Camelot Station to be something very different...
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:00 am (UTC)Kevin's a reincarnation of Arthur who ends up chasing the bad guys with a dead prosecutor (or was he a public defender)--now a ghost, a juvenile delinquent named Edsel, and Mirth.
Reading everyone's responses, I flashed on a few Arthuriana books I'd read way back. After a detour of looking at Vera Nazarian's bibliography, I realized it was Vera Chapman, and The King's Damosel that I was remembering. I still have a copy somewhere but haven't read it in years and only remember that it features Lynette.
Camelot 3000 is pretty bonkers, and I didn't feel that it had aged very well when I read it a few years ago.
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:23 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2019-03-05 04:57 am (UTC)For a shorter and more consistently amazing read, Philipa Moss on AO3 has written some really great fics looking at bits of the Arthurian legendry from unusual angles.
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Date: 2019-03-07 03:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-05 07:37 am (UTC)# King Arthur and the Knights of Justice
# Peter David's Knight Life
# Patricia Kennealy-Morrison's Tales of Arthur in the Keltiad
The first of these is a '90s animated cartoon in which a modern football team is time-traveled back to Camelot by Merlin in order to replace and rescue the original Arthur and his knights, imprisoned by Morgana via Evil Spell. Because this is a '90s animated series, the Knights of Justice have battle cries, magic spirit animals, and other standard trappings of the genre. OTOH, although it's nowhere near a Gargoyles or even a Carmen Sandiego, the writing is above-average for its type. Sadly, the show did not last long enough for the modern Knights to complete their mission....
The second is a stand-alone comic novel by Peter David (I have read the original, but not the much later expanded version) which is kinda sorta in the same broad neighborhood as the previously mentioned modern office sitcom, as its premise is that Arthur and his entourage are reincarnated (mostly as themselves) in modern New York, where Arthur finds himself running for mayor (while Mordred is managing the opposition's campaign).
The third is fascinating because it's at once both a dead straight run at the Matter of Arthur (with bonus Taliesin as narrator throughout) and at the same time totally integrated into the author's Kelts-in-SPAAAAAACE! future history in which all Keltic mythology is projected into old-school space opera mode, where the heroes and heroines are Always Heroic and the villains are Evil Scene-Chewers Of Great Glee.
Oh, and I am faintly astonished that no one's yet mentioned Pamela Service's Winter of Magic's Return, which is post-apocalyptic YA Arthuriana long predating the period when dystopia became a Thing.
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For favorite Arthurian character: I have to go with Merlin, in most of his many iterations. (See the vastly underrated and obscure The Sleepers by Jane Louise Curry -- if you can find a copy -- for an amusing and notable permutation.)
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Unpopular Arthurian opinion? I am sorely frustrated by the fact that nearly all of the newer literary takes on the Arthurian legend tilt very sharply toward Realistic Historical Arthur as opposed to Legendary Magical Arthur. I *like* the fantastical and high-magical elements of the Camelot legends, and I think it's been much too long since anyone's taken (or been given, perhaps) a shot at offering a new retelling on the old-school high-fantasy side of the fence.
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Date: 2019-03-07 03:56 am (UTC)Winter of Magic's Return, however, is one of my favorite weird Arthurianas no question, top marks for boarding schools remaining boarding schools even deep in the post-apocalypse.
I also definitely prefer Weird Magical Camelot to Now We Are Realistic Camelot -- again I blame White for this, who, let's be real, affixed many of my Arthurian opinions quite early.
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Date: 2019-03-05 07:43 am (UTC)I also have a very vague memory of a very weird, incredible depressing Arthuriana time loop novel I read once, but since I can't remember what the hell this is called or who wrote it, it's destined to languish forever :/
Strangely, given the quite large yet incidental amounts of Arhuriana I've read, I don't actually have a lot of opinions about it, controversial or otherwise. Other than being tired of love triangles, I guess.....
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Date: 2019-03-07 03:59 am (UTC)I wish the love triangle was not the bit most pop-culture accessible because all the other bits are so much more interesting! I think it really does a disservice to Arthur as a character specifically to be subsumed into being The Husband In A Love Triangle; I'm much more interested in him as The King Who Attempted Ethics.
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Date: 2019-03-05 08:36 am (UTC)I also learned recently of the existence of John M. Ford's poem "Winter Solstice Camelot Station," which is an unusual take and really wonderful. And there's at least one good fanfic for it on AO3.
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Date: 2019-03-07 04:03 am (UTC)I had never read "Winter Solstice Camelot Station" before this thread and I am so, so happy I now have, it does so many things I like!
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Date: 2019-03-06 06:42 pm (UTC)My favorite character is Gawain and I'm not sorry.
I ... do not even know what an unpopular Arthurian hot take would be, frankly, almost every Arthurian opinion is Good.
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Date: 2019-03-07 04:15 am (UTC)...if you find your notes to your cyberpunk AU I am EXTREMELY CURIOUS to hear about them. Also, about your Gawain characterizations!
I have strong disagreements with some Arthurian opinions! Mostly attempts to convince me that one character is good actually by telling me another character is bad actually (for ex: Guinevere Is Good Because Arthur Is Bad, Morgan Is Good Because Guinevere Is Bad, etc. On the other hand, [X Knight] Is Good Because Lancelot Is Bad I don't mind because it's generally hilarious.)
(Also, did you see that one of your Dark is Rising fics was recced upthread? :D I now have it open in a tab to read on the weekend!)
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Date: 2019-03-07 12:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-03-07 04:16 am (UTC)