(no subject)

[skygiants]

Spinning Silver is one of those books that I put off reading for ages precisely because I was so confident I would like it; I bought a hard copy because I felt pretty sure I'd want to own it, and then, as is inevitably the case when I buy hard copies of books, it sat on my shelf for ages while I desperately tried to keep on top of my library pile.

Anyway now I have finally read it and indeed I did love it, and was glad to have saved it for a time when I really needed a good book, so this is really a triumphant story about how well I know myself and my own tastes!

Spinning Silver is an extremely Jewish-Russian fantasy, told in a variety of first-person viewpoints, primarily those of our three heroines:

Miryem, the daughter of a sweet but very incompetent Jewish moneylender, who in reaction has decided that being sweet is a waste of time and become an extremely competent moneylender, much to her parent's concern; unfortunately has now become so very competent that the king of the local evil ice fairies keeps turning up to ask her to turn his fairy silver into gold

Irina, the daughter of a businesslike Russian nobleman, who wants to marry her off to the handsome young tsar, who, alas, is almost certainly evil; this plan seems unlikely to succeed until Miryem's adventures provide an injection of fairy silver into the proceedings

Wanda, the daughter of Miryem's impoverished and abusive neighbor, who starts working for Miryem's and her parents in order to pay off a moneylending debt and soon starts leveraging this into a plan to escape her father; her problems are mostly unrelated to ice fairies except inasmuch as Miryem's family begins to absorb her and her siblings and thus their ice fairy concerns naturally become relevant, but the emotional arc of her and her brothers learning slowly and painfully how to be a family to each other is extremely good

I love all of these women, but most especially Miryem, who is cold and clever and pragmatic and very angry most of the time, and whose (very fairy-tale and very Jewish) ability to both follow and manipulate the letter of a bargain both dooms her and saves her. The gears of plot and character and fairy-tale logic are all extremely well-balanced -- and were the cockles of my heart warmed when the entire dramatic climax turned out to revolve around Miryem's promise to attend her cousin's Jewish wedding? YES THEY WERE, EXTREMELY.

(I am also extremely impressed with Novik's mastery of voice in this book; it's all first-person and all the heroines and all the side characters sound very distinctly different.)

All that said: look, I'm totally fine with the two very dramatic fairy-tale monster romances presented in this book, they are very fairy-tale and don't really take up a lot of emotional space, but ... I also still .... don't understand why Naomi Novik pretends she's never heard about lesbians ...... Naomi! There were three heroines in this book. Three! You could perfectly well have kept one fairy-tale monster het, if you felt it was really important, and still thrown all the rest of us a bone.

Comments

[percysowner]

I'm so glad you liked this. It is one of my favorite books. As to the not including a lesbian or two, I admit to being a little baffled. Novik is a prolific and damned good fanfic writer, Astolat https://archiveofourown.org/users/astolat , and she wrote a LOT Of slash, so it's not like she's opposed in any way. I have the feeling her publisher may have certain guidelines that are holding her back. Her first book, Uprooted, had a romance that felt very mandated, as opposed to what I thought was a pretty obvious lesbian pairing, that got totally dropped.

Novik's first series is about dragons in the Napoleonic Wars. When one reader stated that Novik would NEVER have wanted anyone to sully the series by slashing the main character and his dragon, Novik replied (using her Astolat account) "You're wrong", which I kind of loved.

[skygiants]

I do genuinely think that the beauty-and-the-beast style fairy tale romance is a narrative trope that Naomi Novik enjoys, and that's fine -- that's always going to be some people's thing and not others' -- but it perplexes me that she keeps so pointedly swerving away! (When talking about this in someone else's entry about this book, ambyr linked me to this AMA where Naomi Novik explains that she doesn't write queer relationships in her pro fiction because it's important to her to write about independent female characters who also get to have romances, and I'm like 'but -- but Naomi, that's -- I feel like you're overlooking -- I know you know lesbians exist!')

[evewithanapple]

Yes, that answer drove me crazy! iirc she said something about how she wants her daughter to be able to read books where women get to be loved, which is why she doesn't write professional m/m and it's just like ". . . there's a really obvious solution for that, Naomi!" (And that's not even getting into the possibility of female protagonists getting adventures and love interests alongside gay guys, which I guess also has not occurred to her? NAOMI.)

[sovay]

ambyr linked me to this AMA where Naomi Novik explains that she doesn't write queer relationships in her pro fiction because it's important to her to write about independent female characters who also get to have romances, and I'm like 'but -- but Naomi, that's -- I feel like you're overlooking -- I know you know lesbians exist!')

I saw that and found it really confusing. I would have been less confused if she had just said that she doesn't enjoy writing or know how to write f/f relationships.

[skygiants]

I'M SO PERPLEXED. Like, it's really fine just to be upfront about it! Diana Wynne Jones explained that she almost never wrote female POV because she felt weird/too-close about it and we all nodded understandingly!

[sovay]

Diana Wynne Jones explained that she almost never wrote female POV because she felt weird/too-close about it and we all nodded understandingly!

I didn't know that! And starting from a core of Sophie, would never have guessed. Neat. Thanks.

[thistleingrey]

it's important to her to write about independent female characters who also get to have romances

I fail utterly to see how that'd keep some of the characters from having romances with other women. I mean.

[sovay]

I fail utterly to see how that'd keep some of the characters from having romances with other women.

Double the independence!

[thistleingrey]

That ought to be a good thing!!

[vass]

How much f/f slash has Astolat written, though?

To answer my own rhetorical question: she has 495 works on AO3. Five of them are tagged F/F. Two of those are vids (one about Dean Winchester's relationships with female characters; the other about Thor/Loki and Jim Ellison/Blair Sandburg); and of the remaining three, two are about one or more men in relationships with more than one woman, and the other one is tagged "everyone/anyone".

Did her publisher's guidelines also prevent her from writing lesbian relationships on the Hugo-winning archive she herself founded?

Just because someone posts 403 fanfics about men having sex with other men doesn't mean she cares about LGBTQA+ representation.

[sapote]

I actually wondered if the Obvious Lesbian Pairing sidelined for the age-gap het I wasn't into in Uprooted was an homage to the, um, Obvious Lesbian Pairing sidelined for the age-gap het that I wasn't into in Robin McKinley's Spindle's End, which I think Novik's referenced as an inspiration.

Both books ended all wrong and the heroines should have kissed, though.

[seekingferret]

Irina, the daughter of a businesslike Russian nobleman, who wants to marry her off to the handsome young tsar, who, alas, is almost certainly evil; this plan seems unlikely to succeed until Miryem's adventures provide an injection of fairy silver into the proceedings

That was my favorite part, the way the very clear and distinct fairy tale plots Novik was juggling flowed into each other and interacted with each other was extremely well done.

But I did agree with liv's objection/quibble that having Miryem not speak Hebrew in an Litvak accent was extremely jarring.

[rymenhild]

Yes, Miryem's Hebrew was all wrong. That was very frustrating.

[skygiants]

I did think it was an interesting choice to transliterate it, too ... I guess it probably would have made for some tricky publishing choices to put it into Hebrew letters, but I almost would have preferred that.

[seekingferret]

I dunno, I think if it were in Hebrew letters it'd have an almost Tolkien feel of sort of magic runes, for everyone who can't read Hebrew characters, and I would find that more upsetting. Zadie Smith does a thing in The Autograph Man where she has the Tetragrammaton written out in Hebrew as a sort of magic invocation and it made me extremely uncomfortable.

(And on the other hand there was my choice, with Fanworks Con asking for subtitles of premieres, to subtitle my Sparkle Motion premiere in the Hebrew alphabet, which I will warrant was almost 100% pure troll.)

[skygiants]

Yeah, that's also a valid point. For sure there's a lot of potential pitfalls in any of the choices.

[sovay]

For sure there's a lot of potential pitfalls in any of the choices.

I have at least twice used Hebrew letters in otherwise English-language text when the writing itself is important; otherwise I tend to transliterate (but not italicize) by preference.

[edit] Example, "After the Red Sea."

[skygiants]

Yeah, it was such a well-constructed book -- there's some books where you can see the wheels of the plot engine grinding and it feels mechanical, and other books where it just feels satisfying to watch all the bits of the Rube Goldberg device fall correctly into place, and this is very much one of the latter.

I don't know Hebrew well enough to have caught that myself, so I'm glad to have it pointed out!

[thistleingrey]

(Thanks for linking liv's review post as well! I hadn't seen it.)

[sovay]

But I did agree with liv's objection/quibble that having Miryem not speak Hebrew in an Litvak accent was extremely jarring.

I find that jarring at second hand! Ashkenazi Hebrew is not a hard thing to double-check.

[stultiloquentia]

You have extremely correct opinions, start to finish. :)

[skygiants]

Thank you! I feel like I'm very late to the party on most of these opinions but I stand by them. :D

[ceitfianna]

I really enjoyed this book, it felt smoother than Uprooted which I also enjoyed, but I completely agree on how there was definitely space for a lesbian relationship.

[skygiants]

Yeah, Uprooted was definitely less smooth plot- and pacing-wise -- I really enjoyed it but Spinning Silver is for sure more polished.

[tassosss]

Spinning Silver is my favorite of hers so far. I loved the monster romances, though I also wanted more from the heroines interacting too.

[skygiants]

Me too! I loved what we saw of Miryem and Wanda's dynamic, especially, and I would have really liked to get more of it.

[starlady]

I just read a Jewish-Russian (well, Belorussian, but it was six of one half a dozen of the other during the period in question) fantasy that I didn't like, so I think the time has come to move this one up my list as a palate cleanser.

That answer about not writing queer relationships in her pro fiction because she wants female characters to have romances is one of those really unpleasant self-owns also known as a Freudian slip.

[skygiants]

Oh, which book was it that you read? (This one got to the top of my list for similar reasons.)

[starlady]

Rena Rossner's The Sisters of the Winter Wood, which made some very weird stylistic choices on top of my finding other parts of it highly questionable.

[skygiants]

Ha, I wondered because it was the same exact thing for me. >.>

[happydork]

Spinning Silver was legit recommended to me as "It's great, but do be warned there are no lesbians"

[skygiants]

It's really fascinating to me -- like, there are plenty of books I can lend people without feeling obliged to warn them about the lack of lesbians, and for some reason Spinning Silver very definitely requires the warning tag!

[redrikki]

So, my take away here is that I need to read this and then request/write some femslash for Yuletide or something. Am I reading that right?

[skygiants]

That is indeed the traditional way to approach a Naomi Novik fairytale retelling!

[chestnut_pod]

YES

[etirabys]

I shipped Wanda/Miryem really hard at some stretch earlier on in the book! I wasn't disappointed with how things turned out; I didn't ship fairy dude/Miryem, but found it charming and interesting for the same reason I can find horse girls taming That One Horse charming and interesting.

[chomiji]

Oh, I like that, about That One Horse! Yes!

[skygiants]

What a perfect way to frame the appeal of that dynamic. Yes, exactly; indeed she'll make sure he doesn't get sent to the glue factory!

[littlerhymes]

I'm so here for all the comments upset about the lack of lesbians in this book (and all her books). Give the people what they want, Naomi!!!

[skygiants]

A righteous clamoring at the door!!

[aria]

WHAT IF LESBIANS

was also 90% of my reaction to this book that I loved XD

[skygiants]

As I said to you yesterday, I'm still consistently impressed that -- like, it's not that difficult to write books for which the first thought is not "what if lesbians." Sometimes it's the second thought or indeed the third! And yet always with Naomi Novik here we are, the very first thing.

[chestnut_pod]

What would I not have given for some excellent “enemies to frenemies to friends lovers” + Feudal Dynamics (TM) femslash with Miryem and Flek! Or a slowly budding romance between Wanda and Miryem to perhaps tie in with Wanda’s slow familiarization with Judaism? Ah well. I’m inclined to think Irina and Mirnatius deserve each other, anyway.

This book will always mean a mountain to me, so I’m glad you enjoyed it too. The scene with the bracha for first planting made me literally weep with seen-ness.

So onward, Yuletide!

[skygiants]

I did like Irina, but I've seen people point out that there's really nothing in the text to indicate that Irina's not just going to murder Mirnatius anyway. Though he is decorative, and I'm sure she can find a way to make him useful.

The wedding got me hard - of course you go to your cousin's wedding, a promise is a promise! And of course you've got to drag your monster husband along too. IT'S IMPORTANT.

[percysowner]

I thought that she might murder Mirnatius, but I falling on the side of no. She's in a much stronger position as wife to the Tsar, especially since

1) without the demon he sees her as the most beautiful thing in the world, just like everybody else

and

2) even if he doesn't see her that way, she has saved him from the demon, so he sees her as the greatest thing since sliced bread based on that.

I know Irina and her father had a plan to run the the kingdom via alliances, but if Irina is married to and controls the Tsar they don't have to rely on anyone else. Mirnatius doesn't give a hoot about running the country, he'd rather be an artist. Irina, OTOH, is very political and with her father's help, more than capable of being the true power in the country. Now, once she has managed to produce and heir and a spare, as it were, Mirnatius MIGHT become unnecessary, but for now, the best bet is keeping him alive with Irina and her father running the country.

[lirazel]

Hi! Following you on the recommendation of snickfic who knows how much I love book recs. You've really summed up a lot of my feelings about Spinning Silver here; as I was reading it, I kept hugging myself, feeling like she wrote it just for me. It's a warm book to me, despite the cold setting, and is stuffed full of details I love.

But yeah, the romances. The two in this book actually worked more for me than the one in Uprooted, but they're the exact same dynamic as Uprooted's romance which makes me think that she's just...not very original when it comes to what kind of het she's into. I thought she sold the romances here well, but I would have gladly sacrificed either one of them for more interaction between the women. At the very least, somebody should get Wanda a girlfriend.

[skygiants]

A warm book is a great way to describe it - I love the way it builds itself around family and community, and how that stuff isn't always easy but is all the more integral for the fact that it's sometimes hard.

Yeah, Novik really does love that Beauty and the Beast trope, that boy is a monster but I triumphantly flipped our power dynamic roundabout and now he's my monster, huzzah! Which is perfectly fine and definitely does work better here than in Uprooted, but the Wanda-Miryem stuff early in the book was SO good and I would have loved to get so much more of it.

[lirazel]

I can't wait to see what she writes next, but I have little hope she'll explore a different romantic dynamic, which is such a shame because she's such a great writer and I know she could do interesting things.

but the Wanda-Miryem stuff early in the book was SO good and I would have loved to get so much more of it.

AGREED.