skygiants | (no subject)

I like to keep a couple unread thrift-store Barbara Michaels Gothics around the house as emergency paperbacks, but unfortunately I think Here I Stay was the last one I had on tap and it turned out to be my least favorite of all the Barbara Michaels I've read ...

... here is where I have to admit that while I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable. I genuinely think Barbara Michaels made a bold choice with Andrea Torgesen of Here I Stay! She's kind of awful in ways that are clearly very much on purpose, and I guess I respect that but I very much did not enjoy reading about her.

So, Andea has subsumed her entire life since teenagerhood into taking care of her now-college-aged younger brother Jim, and as a result is pretty unhealthily possessive in ways that have gotten significantly worse since he lost both his leg and his hopes of a sportsball career in a car accident. She has no time for outside friends or interests, and as a result resents the time that Jim spends with his; she's terrified of allowing him to do anything that's even a little bit dangerous; she knows she ought to respect his privacy but sometimes she's just got to sneak into his room and read his bad teenaged poetry ...

Anyway, the plot of the book is that Andrea and Jim move into an old moderately haunted building and turn it into a successful B&B, after which a political columnist moves in as a long-time lodger and falls in love with Andrea for some inexplicable reason, while constantly recommending that she might want to give Jim more space and freedom and opportunity to envision a life that's not just 'live in this B&B with my older sister, forever.'

I was really hoping that this would turn out to be the kind of book where all this resulted in Andrea developing interests and community and a sense of respect for both herself and her brother as capable, independent people ...

Unfortunately it was not that kind of book. Andrea never learns how to let Jim live his own life!

Instead, she learns to let him go ... WHEN HE DIES OF A BRAIN ANEURYSM ON THE SECOND-TO-LAST-PAGE!

Jim, it turns out, only survived the car accident so that he could die later after bonding with the sad house ghost and help her ... go into the light? Or something? Anyway, fuck the notion that Jim could have a whole and vibrant and independent future without his leg, I guess.

I did like the immortal cat named Satan who lives in the B&B's master bedroom. Also, the very reluctantly psychic local business owner who refuses to admit that she can sense ghosts and also refuses to ever return to any location where she did sense a ghost because she just Does Not Want To Deal With It and has been doing this her entire life, now she'd like to get back to running the town's most popular restaurant, please. I'd read the book about her.

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From:

osprey_archer

I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable.

This is an interesting insight and I'm chewing it over in my mind! I feel like this is perhaps true of most people? One thing that has always struck me about so-called anti-hero shows (Breaking Bad or Dexter) is the fact that many viewers clearly do just plain like and root for these supposedly unlikable characters - the creators seem to envision some level of ironic detachment in their viewers that often isn't there. Sure, Dexter's a serial killer, but he's likable!

I definitely think many people are willing to cut male characters more slack in this than female, but there are for instance diehard Regina fans in Once Upon a Time. And perhaps this is a result of narrative cues as much as anything? OUaT spends a lot of time and effort making Regina a complex and multifaceted character, just like Breaking Bad and Dexter do with their leads.

... anyway, going back to this particular book, it sounds like Andrea is unlikable in a way that just isn't much fun. I feel like if you're going to do creepy codependent siblings, you'd better go full Merricat or go home.

From:

feklar42

I love talking about anti-heroes. I feel like there is a range of "bad guys" and most anti-heroes fall into an area of fulfilling revenge fantasies or other desires (make enough money to take care of my family after I die) that are relatively easily identified with.

About the only Character I can think of that is popular despite being a true villain is Hannibal Lector. He is not just an anti–hero (Constantine, James Bond, the Punisher) or someone who walked the road of good intentions into hell (WWX from Untamed), he is a legitimately evil person. But, between the sheer charisma of Mads Mickelson and Anthony Hopkins and usually clever writing, damn if I'm not sharing his gleeful delight in his horrific shenanigans.

From:

osprey_archer

Yes, I think charisma can have a huge effect, especially in something live action. If someone adapted this book and cast a charismatic actress as Andrea, maybe we would all watch it and go "Oh Andrea, it's horrible when you sneak into your brother's room and read his terrible teenage poetry... and yet we still love you for some reason???"

From:

evewithanapple

I feel like the Venn diagram of "diehard Regina fans" and "diehard Regina/Emma fans" is basically a circle, which is another piece of it - people are much more willing to overlook or forgive flaws when the flawed character is half of their ship.

From:

osprey_archer

Oh, true! That definitely can provide a lot of motivation.

From:

tree_and_leaf

I dunno, I think with Breaking Bad you were supposed to start off finding Walt likeable and sympathetic, and gradually realise that he was a monster (whereas Hank appeared to be goofy, not very bright, and annoying, and you gradually came to see that you'd been seeing him through Walt's eyes and that while, yes, he was goofy, he was also a good agent, much smarter than Walt thought, and a much better man). But I'm still not sure how well that landed with all the audience.

From:

osprey_archer

My impression is that a certain segment of the audience were diehard Walt fans who were AGHAST that Walt's family did not properly appreciate his sacrifice in becoming a drug kingpin in order to provide them with money after he died. But audiences are weird like that! You never really know what they're going to latch onto.

From:

tree_and_leaf

Yes, I think that's probably right - on both counts!

From:

skygiants

That's completely accurate about anti-hero shows -- and, like, I'm absolutely bored of anti-hero white men but I watch Killing Eve, I too have a good time seeing Villanelle get stabby on my television. Or, like, I love Villette, which has a truly weird and kind of awful heroine but it's so much fun to watch her be weird and awful! It's easy to feel self-satisfied and virtuous about this because unlikable men are so much more prevalent and do get so much more slack but really it's more about my personal taste than anything else ...

Though I do think the other part of the thing is that, like -- if this book had been about Andrea growing, I honestly probably would have been completely on board with her; I love books that begin with someone who's flat out miserable within and without, the petty villain of somebody else's story, and then gives them a nice long luxurious character arc in which to change. But Andrea is neither unlikable in a way that's fun, nor has the opportunity to change and become a person who's happier in and of herself, and that just makes the whole experience frustrating.

From:

sovay

But Andrea is neither unlikable in a way that's fun, nor has the opportunity to change and become a person who's happier in and of herself, and that just makes the whole experience frustrating.

What is even the point of a book like that?

[edit] I am familiar with narratives where the point is that the awful or unhappy or self-sabotaging protagonist doesn't change; I tend to find them depressing, especially if they're near-misses on personal growth, but I understand their existence. This doesn't sound like that kind of book, so what even happened?

Edited Date: 2020-04-14 07:13 pm (UTC)

From:

osprey_archer

HDU, Lucy Snowe has never done anything wrong a day in her life! ...but also yeah, she is definitely an odd duck, and while her total inability to go after what she wants ever is at least partly society's fault (she really can't go up to John Graham Bretton and tell him "I'm in love with you! How do you like them apples??"), part of it is also that Lucy just seems to think that "Life sucks and then you die" is an inescapable prophecy so why even bother trying to find employment she enjoys.

I will remain forever fascinated by her relationship with Ginevra, though, because she says again and again that she doesn't like Ginevra, but at the same time, she seems to really like the way that Ginevra relentlessly pursues her? She always shares her coffee and rolls with Ginevra, always picks Ginevra as her partner when there are treats going around... this is not the way to get someone to stop hanging around you, Lucy!

Does Andrea just have no character arc at all? Does Michaels just hook her up with the political columnist and call it a day? (I'm assuming they get together; otherwise the book has literally no point at all except for Jim bonding with the sad house ghost to guide her into the light, in which case shouldn't Jim and the sad house ghost have been the MCs??)

From:

skygiants

I don't say this often, but it is very hard for me to imagine a heterosexual explanation for Lucy and Ginevra. I mean, nothing's going to actually happen, because society and Lucy refuses to even contemplate the notion that 'sometimes, people can have nice things,' but ... that is not a heterosexual dynamic.

Andrea's main plot is that she starts identifying more and more with the other household ghost, who was the possessive and domineering mother of Jim's ghost, and yes it is weird, and yes the only time she does make out with the political columnist is when the ghost is mildly possessing her, which to his credit the political columnist twigs to pretty fast and is like 'hey! nope! catch you later!' ... but at the very end she learns that sometimes you have to let people go, when they're dying of a brain aneurysm in front of you! and that's love. Or something. Anyway, her B&B is a success and I guess that's what matters.

From:

osprey_archer

Not to toot my own horn but I wrote a Ginevra/Lucy fic for Yuletide one year (Nymphs and Bacchantes) in which Ginevra has not been admired sufficiently at a party and comes to Lucy afterward to be... appropriately admired.

I think Lucy believes that people can have nice things as long as those people are not her, which somehow makes it even worse. Ginevra, for instance, is clearly going to get everything she wants out of life. It's just Lucy who has to tamp down on all possibility of happiness because if she allows herself to hope for anything more than dull resignation, Fate will blight her with terrible sorrows.