(no subject)

[skygiants]

I like to keep a couple unread thrift-store Barbara Michaels Gothics around the house as emergency paperbacks, but unfortunately I think Here I Stay was the last one I had on tap and it turned out to be my least favorite of all the Barbara Michaels I've read ...

... here is where I have to admit that while I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable. I genuinely think Barbara Michaels made a bold choice with Andrea Torgesen of Here I Stay! She's kind of awful in ways that are clearly very much on purpose, and I guess I respect that but I very much did not enjoy reading about her.

So, Andea has subsumed her entire life since teenagerhood into taking care of her now-college-aged younger brother Jim, and as a result is pretty unhealthily possessive in ways that have gotten significantly worse since he lost both his leg and his hopes of a sportsball career in a car accident. She has no time for outside friends or interests, and as a result resents the time that Jim spends with his; she's terrified of allowing him to do anything that's even a little bit dangerous; she knows she ought to respect his privacy but sometimes she's just got to sneak into his room and read his bad teenaged poetry ...

Anyway, the plot of the book is that Andrea and Jim move into an old moderately haunted building and turn it into a successful B&B, after which a political columnist moves in as a long-time lodger and falls in love with Andrea for some inexplicable reason, while constantly recommending that she might want to give Jim more space and freedom and opportunity to envision a life that's not just 'live in this B&B with my older sister, forever.'

I was really hoping that this would turn out to be the kind of book where all this resulted in Andrea developing interests and community and a sense of respect for both herself and her brother as capable, independent people ...

Unfortunately it was not that kind of book. Andrea never learns how to let Jim live his own life!

Instead, she learns to let him go ... WHEN HE DIES OF A BRAIN ANEURYSM ON THE SECOND-TO-LAST-PAGE!

Jim, it turns out, only survived the car accident so that he could die later after bonding with the sad house ghost and help her ... go into the light? Or something? Anyway, fuck the notion that Jim could have a whole and vibrant and independent future without his leg, I guess.

I did like the immortal cat named Satan who lives in the B&B's master bedroom. Also, the very reluctantly psychic local business owner who refuses to admit that she can sense ghosts and also refuses to ever return to any location where she did sense a ghost because she just Does Not Want To Deal With It and has been doing this her entire life, now she'd like to get back to running the town's most popular restaurant, please. I'd read the book about her.

Comments

[sovay]

Instead, she learns to let him go ... WHEN HE DIES OF A BRAIN ANEURYSM ON THE SECOND-TO-LAST-PAGE!

NOPE SORRY OUT

[skygiants]

I came very close to throwing the book across the room.

[sovay]

I came very close to throwing the book across the room.

That's even more impressive at such a last minute. I'm so sorry.

[osprey_archer]

I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable.

This is an interesting insight and I'm chewing it over in my mind! I feel like this is perhaps true of most people? One thing that has always struck me about so-called anti-hero shows (Breaking Bad or Dexter) is the fact that many viewers clearly do just plain like and root for these supposedly unlikable characters - the creators seem to envision some level of ironic detachment in their viewers that often isn't there. Sure, Dexter's a serial killer, but he's likable!

I definitely think many people are willing to cut male characters more slack in this than female, but there are for instance diehard Regina fans in Once Upon a Time. And perhaps this is a result of narrative cues as much as anything? OUaT spends a lot of time and effort making Regina a complex and multifaceted character, just like Breaking Bad and Dexter do with their leads.

... anyway, going back to this particular book, it sounds like Andrea is unlikable in a way that just isn't much fun. I feel like if you're going to do creepy codependent siblings, you'd better go full Merricat or go home.

[feklar42]

I love talking about anti-heroes. I feel like there is a range of "bad guys" and most anti-heroes fall into an area of fulfilling revenge fantasies or other desires (make enough money to take care of my family after I die) that are relatively easily identified with.

About the only Character I can think of that is popular despite being a true villain is Hannibal Lector. He is not just an anti–hero (Constantine, James Bond, the Punisher) or someone who walked the road of good intentions into hell (WWX from Untamed), he is a legitimately evil person. But, between the sheer charisma of Mads Mickelson and Anthony Hopkins and usually clever writing, damn if I'm not sharing his gleeful delight in his horrific shenanigans.

[osprey_archer]

Yes, I think charisma can have a huge effect, especially in something live action. If someone adapted this book and cast a charismatic actress as Andrea, maybe we would all watch it and go "Oh Andrea, it's horrible when you sneak into your brother's room and read his terrible teenage poetry... and yet we still love you for some reason???"

[evewithanapple]

I feel like the Venn diagram of "diehard Regina fans" and "diehard Regina/Emma fans" is basically a circle, which is another piece of it - people are much more willing to overlook or forgive flaws when the flawed character is half of their ship.

[osprey_archer]

Oh, true! That definitely can provide a lot of motivation.

[tree_and_leaf]

I dunno, I think with Breaking Bad you were supposed to start off finding Walt likeable and sympathetic, and gradually realise that he was a monster (whereas Hank appeared to be goofy, not very bright, and annoying, and you gradually came to see that you'd been seeing him through Walt's eyes and that while, yes, he was goofy, he was also a good agent, much smarter than Walt thought, and a much better man). But I'm still not sure how well that landed with all the audience.

[osprey_archer]

My impression is that a certain segment of the audience were diehard Walt fans who were AGHAST that Walt's family did not properly appreciate his sacrifice in becoming a drug kingpin in order to provide them with money after he died. But audiences are weird like that! You never really know what they're going to latch onto.

[tree_and_leaf]

Yes, I think that's probably right - on both counts!

[skygiants]

That's completely accurate about anti-hero shows -- and, like, I'm absolutely bored of anti-hero white men but I watch Killing Eve, I too have a good time seeing Villanelle get stabby on my television. Or, like, I love Villette, which has a truly weird and kind of awful heroine but it's so much fun to watch her be weird and awful! It's easy to feel self-satisfied and virtuous about this because unlikable men are so much more prevalent and do get so much more slack but really it's more about my personal taste than anything else ...

Though I do think the other part of the thing is that, like -- if this book had been about Andrea growing, I honestly probably would have been completely on board with her; I love books that begin with someone who's flat out miserable within and without, the petty villain of somebody else's story, and then gives them a nice long luxurious character arc in which to change. But Andrea is neither unlikable in a way that's fun, nor has the opportunity to change and become a person who's happier in and of herself, and that just makes the whole experience frustrating.

[sovay]

But Andrea is neither unlikable in a way that's fun, nor has the opportunity to change and become a person who's happier in and of herself, and that just makes the whole experience frustrating.

What is even the point of a book like that?

[edit] I am familiar with narratives where the point is that the awful or unhappy or self-sabotaging protagonist doesn't change; I tend to find them depressing, especially if they're near-misses on personal growth, but I understand their existence. This doesn't sound like that kind of book, so what even happened?

[osprey_archer]

HDU, Lucy Snowe has never done anything wrong a day in her life! ...but also yeah, she is definitely an odd duck, and while her total inability to go after what she wants ever is at least partly society's fault (she really can't go up to John Graham Bretton and tell him "I'm in love with you! How do you like them apples??"), part of it is also that Lucy just seems to think that "Life sucks and then you die" is an inescapable prophecy so why even bother trying to find employment she enjoys.

I will remain forever fascinated by her relationship with Ginevra, though, because she says again and again that she doesn't like Ginevra, but at the same time, she seems to really like the way that Ginevra relentlessly pursues her? She always shares her coffee and rolls with Ginevra, always picks Ginevra as her partner when there are treats going around... this is not the way to get someone to stop hanging around you, Lucy!

Does Andrea just have no character arc at all? Does Michaels just hook her up with the political columnist and call it a day? (I'm assuming they get together; otherwise the book has literally no point at all except for Jim bonding with the sad house ghost to guide her into the light, in which case shouldn't Jim and the sad house ghost have been the MCs??)

[skygiants]

I don't say this often, but it is very hard for me to imagine a heterosexual explanation for Lucy and Ginevra. I mean, nothing's going to actually happen, because society and Lucy refuses to even contemplate the notion that 'sometimes, people can have nice things,' but ... that is not a heterosexual dynamic.

Andrea's main plot is that she starts identifying more and more with the other household ghost, who was the possessive and domineering mother of Jim's ghost, and yes it is weird, and yes the only time she does make out with the political columnist is when the ghost is mildly possessing her, which to his credit the political columnist twigs to pretty fast and is like 'hey! nope! catch you later!' ... but at the very end she learns that sometimes you have to let people go, when they're dying of a brain aneurysm in front of you! and that's love. Or something. Anyway, her B&B is a success and I guess that's what matters.

[osprey_archer]

Not to toot my own horn but I wrote a Ginevra/Lucy fic for Yuletide one year (Nymphs and Bacchantes) in which Ginevra has not been admired sufficiently at a party and comes to Lucy afterward to be... appropriately admired.

I think Lucy believes that people can have nice things as long as those people are not her, which somehow makes it even worse. Ginevra, for instance, is clearly going to get everything she wants out of life. It's just Lucy who has to tamp down on all possibility of happiness because if she allows herself to hope for anything more than dull resignation, Fate will blight her with terrible sorrows.

[rose_griffes]

I vaguely recall reading some of Barbara Michaels' books at some point, but THANKFULLY NOT THAT ONE. Eep.

[skygiants]

There are a number of them that are genuinely good and that I really like! Not ... this one.

[feklar42]

That sounds like an Asian drama –
1. Vaguely incestuous codependent sibling relationship – check
2. Family tragedy – check
3. Female family member sacrificing all for everybody else – whether they want it or not – check
4. improbably successful, handsome, or competent male lead inexplicably attracted to 3 – check
5. Sudden, not necessary for plot, death that just sucks any possible joy out of the story – check

The psychic who doesn't want to be a psychic and therefore avoids places she has come across ghosts reminds me of a character in "He is Coming to Me." https://mydramalist.com/31880-he-s-coming-to-me

[skygiants]

You're absolutely right but a drama would have been ... probably more fun .... than this ..... like I hate to say it but the codependent sibling relationship probably would have been more enjoyable if it was written as id-bait.

I feel like I heard good things about He Is Coming To Me!

[feklar42]

LOL at "id-bait"

He Is Coming To Me! Was a pretty popular Thai BL. It is one of the lighter ones, but they come up with a happy ending that is very different from anything I think a Western company would produce. It begs for fanfic to explain some things. LOL

Unfortunately, it came right before the Thai BL channels realized they should put in English subs for everything to maximize their audience. So there are only subs by Gcinee – a group I try not to support. You can find it on YouTube.

[vass]

(closing tabs and saw this)

I have just this moment discovered how much I want to see the Asian drama version of Kafka's Metamorphosis.

[feklar42]

my initial response was LOL. Then I realized just how utterly horrifying an Asian drama version of Metamorphosis could be. I don't think I could handle it. 😱😱😱

[graycardinal]

I hit one of those protagonists recently; she's clearly meant to be eccentric, and the author's choice seem wholly purposeful...but the result is a protagonist who makes me wonder why the other characters put up with her on a daily basis, because she is Just That Difficult.

The book in question is Elementary, She Read by Vicki Delany, first in a cozy mystery series about Gemma Doyle (only distantly related to Sir Arthur), English-born operator of a Sherlock Holmes themed bookshop on Cape Cod.

Although Gemma never describes it as such, her protagonist's superpower is that she has precisely the same knack for hyper-precise observation and deduction as does Holmes in the Conan Doyle stories. She can micro-read body language, identify accents at the drop of a syllable, extrapolate accurately from miniscule details of a target's wardrobe, and -- if forced into culinary duty by her best friend, who runs the tea shop next door -- will ask for a ruler to make sure the sandwiches are exactly two inches long by 3/4 inch wide.

The trouble is that Gemma's first-person narration (obligatory, since this is a modern cozy and that's become a Rule) makes her come across as alarmingly and unattractively self-centered. She can't resist correcting other people's imprecisions ("What high tea? Oh, you mean afternoon tea. You really shouldn't get those mixed up."), and imposes shamelessly on friends (finagling a last-second dinner reservation at the most crowded seafood place in town). So when she gets herself involved in a murder connected to the rarest possible Holmesian artifact -- an 1887 Beeton's Christmas Annual -- rather than admiring her deductive instincts, I kept wondering when she was actually going to get arrested for interfering with the police investigation.

One further complicating factor: certain aspects of the writing make me wonder if the author intends Gemma to be perceived as some flavor of high-functioning autistic, which would explain what sometimes comes across as a lack of personal filters where her dialogue is concerned. But the text gives absolutely no overt cues in that direction to the reader, so one can't really use that theory to mitigate Gemma's general lack of likeability.

Which is frustrating in the extreme, because as far as the mystery itself is concerned, Delany supplies a sharp, clever plot, a comfortable and convincingly drawn setting, and a likeable cast of supporting characters. It's just that I spent most of the book shouting metaphorically for Gemma's friends to stage an intervention on her behalf, and I'm not much interested in sticking around for more books (there are four or five at this point) in which they don't call her on her BS.

[aella_irene]

I stopped reading a cozy culinary crime series where the heroine was becoming unlikable, and the narrative kept insisting that her wish not to investigate a murder where she had tripped over the body of her abusive husband's new girlfriend was a flaw, as stated by the heroine's son. The narrative was far far more forgiving of the abuse than I was.

Also there are characters who are supposed to be so likeable that they cross the border and I am just more interested in the hero's morally dubious estranged legal father. (Different series)

[skygiants]

This sounds almost like a reverse problem, which is when the author is convinced that the protagonist's quirks are charming ones and you, as the reader, are like "oh no I do not find this charming though ..." My hackles are ten times likely to get up about a character that I can tell the author really wants me to love and I am just not going to, whereas normally if the author is politely holding out a plate clearly labeled 'TRASH FIRE' I'm like 'all right as long as you know.' (Though in this particular place Michaels clearly did know and I still did not want the trash fire.)

[merit]

Damn that would have been a sucker punch!

I did like the immortal cat named Satan who lives in the B&B's master bedroom. Also, the very reluctantly psychic local business owner who refuses to admit that she can sense ghosts and also refuses to ever return to any location where she did sense a ghost because she just Does Not Want To Deal With It and has been doing this her entire life, now she'd like to get back to running the town's most popular restaurant, please.

and yet that sounds so tempting~~

[skygiants]

There are better immortal cats and reluctant psychics out there! save yourself, it's not worth it

[oracne]

NOPE.

[skygiants]

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[cinaed]

Oh...yeah...I read that one and immediately wiped it from my brain. JUSTICE FOR JIM! And yes, the reluctant psychic was great.

[skygiants]

JUSTICE FOR JIM! Let him go back to college!

[kate_nepveu]

"while I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable"

we were just talking about Clem???

[skygiants]

YEAH I HAD THAT THOUGHT EVEN AS I TYPED IT

[venetia_sassy]

I reread this not long ago and it was painful. I did find Andrea a recognisable character and I liked that we weren't supposed to find her clinginess healthy - even while you could see where it came from (good sister/mother makes brother/son her world! Invests all in his health/happiness/success! Empty nest, oh fuck.) But it was not a fun book.

[skygiants]

I want my Barbara Michaelses to be about personal growth and women finding fulfillment and independence in unlikely career changes, or failing that I want them to be hilariously melodramatic, and this was neither! >:(

[hilarita]

This is the disabled equivalent of Kill Your Queers, isn't it? Ugh.

Though the cat sounds pretty cool.

[davidgillon]

Kill Off Your Crips, it's a thing. It's the marginally less evil twin of Cure your Crips.

[skygiants]

It absolutely is. So much narratively easier for them to die saintly, apparently!

[vintagewitch]

... here is where I have to admit that while I like to talk a big game about appreciating unlikable heroines, the real truth is that this probably only applies when those heroines are unlikable in ways that I, in fact, find likable.

Very relatable XD

[skygiants]

I LIKE A LOT OF UNLIKABLE THINGS but not, apparently, any of the things in this book!

[issenllo]

Omg I hated this one.

[skygiants]

Definitely the absolute bottom-tier Michaels - I've read others I didn't particularly enjoy, but none that annoyed me as much as the ending of this one did!

[littlestclouds]

I did like the immortal cat named Satan
HMMMM.

[skygiants]

He was a good cat and it wasn't his fault that this book was going on around him.

[davidgillon]

since he lost both his leg
Instead, she learns to let him go ... WHEN HE DIES OF A BRAIN ANEURYSM ON THE SECOND-TO-LAST-PAGE!

Because god forbid a disabled character might be used as something other than a plot device!

[skygiants]

It was so frustrating, especially because, like -- throughout the book, Jim does things, and they're interesting things! He dates a local girl and wins the respect of the townspeople by punching out her asshole boyfriend, he picks up new hobbies like gardening and woodwork and does a really good job of them, he does an independent ghost research project and gets really stoked about learning how to source references and use microfilm, he starts writing emo poetry and it's admittedly not great poetry but nonetheless a gothic lit-mag phase is a pretty interesting development for a kid who used to be a football jock! I was actually feeling pretty good about Michaels for the amount of stuff Jim was managing to do and the ways he was developing, around Andrea's overprotectiveness! AND THEN, THIS.

[davidgillon]

Ugh! Why!

But it seems to be the way a lot of books blow their disability representation, as though they can't believe that just letting disabled characters get on with their lives is acceptable, or kind.