(no subject)

[skygiants]

Piranesi is the first full book I've read in several weeks and I downed it yesterday in more or less a single shot -- partly due to circumstances and partly due to the particular spell of the book itself, which, having fallen into it, I found myself increasingly reluctant to disturb.

Piranesi is the journal of a man whose world is an endless mansion of infinite rooms, populated by a variety of complex marble statues, thirteen skeletons, flocks of potentially-prophetic birds, and some fish (delicious.) Also there is another man, whom our protagonist refers to as the Other, who meets with him on a strict weekly schedule to discuss the pursuit of the lost knowledge of the universe. The Other calls the protagonist Piranesi, although the protagonist is fairly sure that's not in fact his own name.

Obviously this premise invites some questions. Answers come in an uneasy trickle, growing to a flood.

A short list of things that have evoked similar feelings in me as Piranesi: the film Annihilation. Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist. Hand's Wylding Hall. Vague memories of playing the computer game Myst when I was very small. It's something about about the feeling of being a person in a world that's so much bigger than you are, and so capable of betrayal, and also just profoundly beautiful; a world that will inevitably change you in ways that were never consented to by the person you used to be, who maybe would only see the loss of transformation, and not the wonder of it.

...there are already too many adjectives in that last sentence about the Piranesi experience but let me just fling another few at the wall: lonely, eerie, discomfiting, numinous. Okay, sorry, just had to get those out there! We're done now!

Comments

[radiantfracture]

A short list of things that have evoked similar feelings in me as Piranesi: the film Annihilation. Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist. Hand's Wylding Hall.

Oooh. I loved Annihilation. Putting this on my list.

[skygiants]

It's something about that very particular horror/wonder combo -- Piranesi is not a horror book but the environment of Piranesi and the thing that happens to the protagonist is deeply terrifying to me, personally, and the book does such a good job of showing it as beautiful, in a way that connects directly in my brain to the intensely beautiful atmosphere that Annihilation creates.

[sovay]

A short list of things that have evoked similar feelings in me as Piranesi: the film Annihilation. Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist. Hand's Wylding Hall.

Hm. There are very few things that actually feel like Lud-in-the-Mist as opposed to just demonstrating that the author read it.

[skygiants]

Yeah, and like, when you just lay out the plots, JSMN has a much more direct-descent lineage from Lud-in-the-Mist than Piranesi, but the death | transformation | cold wonder thing fills the whole of Piranesi in a way that ... it's not that it's not in JSMN, because it absolutely is, but there's also so much else happening in JSMN that it doesn't completely suffuse it in the same way.

[sovay]

when you just lay out the plots, JSMN has a much more direct-descent lineage from Lud-in-the-Mist than Piranesi

It has the deep, almost automatic linking of the worlds of Faerie and the dead, which is very old and which almost no fantasy writer between Mirrlees and Clarke has exploited as much as you would think the trope was crying out for, and it has the opening of the roads between Faerie and the human world again, and it definitely has the numinous which is not malevolent which doesn't make it safe, but I agree with you that the overall feel is different, and the strangeness of Clarke's fairies is not the same as the strangeness of Mirrlees'. You make Piranesi sound like a book that's Master Nathaniel's Note all through.

[edit] Actually the thing that is likeliest to make me read this book is that one of its epigraphs is spoken by Uncle Andrew in The Magician's Nephew and since I know exactly the context of that self-justification, I really want to see how everything that's packed into it precipitates out into Clarke's novel. It's my favorite of the Chronicles of Narnia—it's the weirdest of the series—but I don't think of it as having that many direct descendants compared to the other kinds of portal fantasy presented in the Chronicles. So anything that's in dialogue with it automatically intrigues me, on top of Mirrlees and the fact that it sounds also potentially in dialogue with Mervyn Peake.

[edit edit] I forgot that The Magician's Nephew is in the substrate of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell—it clicked with me when I realized that Norrell confronted by the gentleman with thistle-down hair reminded me strongly of Andrew Ketterley confronted by Jadis ("'Books!' (This in a tone of the utmost contempt)"/ "a little, peddling Magician who works by rules and books") and then I remember finding confirmation in an interview with Clarke. So if it's a taproot she keeps returning to, I'm really interested by that.

[landingtree]

That's very interesting about Mr Norrell having Andrew Ketterly as an ancestor, and it helps me think about what I find compelling in them both. Kicking such vast events into motion and then almost entirely failing to cope; using their studies to draw near something they refuse to look at or name. There's something I love about that version of magicians. You couldn't call them wizards, they're so desperately human.

[sovay]

Kicking such vast events into motion and then almost entirely failing to cope; using their studies to draw near something they refuse to look at or name.

Yes! I also think Clarke took this maxim: "Uncle Andrew, you see, was working with things he did not really understand; most magicians are."

There's something I love about that version of magicians. You couldn't call them wizards, they're so desperately human.

I like that distinction. I am deeply fond of Norrell and since childhood have retained a kind of horrified affection for Andrew Ketterley based mostly on how thoroughly outclassed he is as soon as Jadis shows up.

[kate_nepveu]

... I definitely need to reread The Magician's Nephew now, even more than when I remembered that I forgot that it was one of the epigraphs.

[skygiants]

I had also forgotten that Magician's Nephew provided one of the epigraphs but once I stop and think about it, yeah, that's all in there, isn't it? The pairing of exploration | exploitation, and the portal that leads to a sense of unformed power and potential rather than a world that exists in its own right.

"The Ketterleys are an old Dorsetshire family."

[sovay]

The pairing of exploration | exploitation, and the portal that leads to a sense of unformed power and potential rather than a world that exists in its own right.

In fact, I appreciate your ability to review this book without giving away that in addition to its own numinous self it can legitimately be seen as a remix of The Magician's Nephew—at least the parts with Uncle Andrew and the Wood Between the Worlds and Charn—or, depending on whether you think that parenthesis about the Ketterleys is an ironic quotation or merely a factual note, actually in continuity with it. I am not so good on the Inklings beyond Lewis, but there's definitely some Barfield and maybe some Williams in it, rushthatspeaks would know better than I do. Plus the random other touches of Narnia. I considered whether the ritual use of the bog-mummified head of Addedomarus was a nod to the severed head in That Hideous Strength, but it probably isn't and in any case I hated that book, so I have no plans to re-read and find out.

I loved Piranesi; I would have even if the House hadn't turned out to resemble places I have dreamed and evoked some of the same feelings as my favorite passage in Scott O'Dell's Island of the Blue Dolphins (1960). I love its handling of time and sea and memory and I love how an entire other, Elizabeth Hand/M. John Harrison-like novel about British occultism has been obviously taking place just offscreen. It interests me how much it did not read to me as horror. I am glad to know that Clarke has more than one mode of writing in her and I would be quite happy if this one won as many of all the things as Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell.

Re: "The Ketterleys are an old Dorsetshire family."

[skygiants]

I'm so glad you turned out to love it! There is something about the House that feels inescapably familiar, doesn't it? Like a place one knows, or ought to know; there's really something uncanny about how Clarke is able to evoke that effect. It's so unmistakably original while containing so many reverberating echoes.

I think it read to me a little more as tinging on horror than it seems to have for most people -- not entirely, not overwhelmingly, just that sense of unshakable discomfort -- but I profoundly agree about Clarke's modes of writing, and winning all the awards.

Re: "The Ketterleys are an old Dorsetshire family."

[asakiyume]

I loved this take on the Wood Between the Worlds.

Another touch I loved was the mention of the statue of an old fox instructing two young squirrels, which felt to me like a callback to the party of squirrels, a faun, and a fox, whom Jadis turns to stone in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.

And agreed! This is a great review that doesn't give away that secret!

[skygiants]

Yeah, Mervyn Peake is also definitely in there, from what I remember of it -- I read Titus Groan and Gormenghast when I was nine and found the experience so unnerving at the time that I have neither ever forgotten it nor ever returned to it, so don't necessarily trust my judgment in this, but the enormous internal scale of the place echoes into Piranesi at the very least. I'll be really interested to hear your thoughts when you read it; for such a short text there are really boundless layers of reference and resonance, only some of which I feel at all qualified to pick up on.

(I wish we were still meeting physically for chorus and I could loan you my copy!)

[sovay]

I read Titus Groan and Gormenghast when I was nine and found the experience so unnerving at the time that I have neither ever forgotten it nor ever returned to it, so don't necessarily trust my judgment in this, but the enormous internal scale of the place echoes into Piranesi at the very least.

It is very difficult for any building that operates as a literal microcosm written after 1946 not to be at least slightly in dialogue with Mervyn Peake, especially if deep time and vast architecture are involved. A certain amount of elaborate daily ritual practiced to mark the progression of time which may or may not be progressing also tends to owe a debt. I read Titus Groan and Gormenghast in college and adored them. And then I went oh, derp about a bunch of things about A Tale of Time City.

(I wish we were still meeting physically for chorus and I could loan you my copy!)

It would make things much easier! And I could swap you back some of the other books you had lent me in the meanwhile!

[hebethen]

The scene in the moon chamber struck me quite intensely. When I went back to reread the passage with an assessing eye, I couldn't see how it was done. But I suppose that's sort of meta, isn't it?

[skygiants]

Yeah, absolutely -- I don't think I could at all analyze the way the mood that she evokes is constructed out of its component parts.

[asakiyume]

That was the point when I folded down a page and just sat there, feeling awed. (Hi... I'm responding to your comment months after the fact because I've just finished reading the book! So I'm coming back to friends' journal entries in which it was mentioned.)

[hebethen]

No worries, I've done much the same in times past! I swear if/when I get a house of my own and am able to settle down I must buy myself a copy of Piranesi for the personal library.

[antisoppist]

When you were describing it, I thought it sounded like very Myst.

[skygiants]

Bear in mind I haven't played Myst since I was like 10 and I was abysmal at it, but the sense of not quite being clever enough for this is also, absolutely, a component part of my experience of Piranesi ....

[kate_nepveu]

I love how many different things people are finding in this book! My review was very limited by design, but I've seen people talk about disability, Plato, Narnia, and now Myst!

Oh how I hope for Yuletide fic.

[reconditarmonia]

For me, it was very Robinsonade and very...ugh, I'm blanking on what I might have read about people being introduced to "civilization", whether because they lived among "non-civilized" people or with animals.

[skygiants]

Somehow I had not even considered Narnia, but of course the concept of theological portal fantasy is interwoven right into the roots of the book!

(I went back and read your review and I found it really interesting that you called the book warm, though -- I loved it, but it did really viscerally conjure the sensation of 'coldness' for me, not in an emotional or a writing way but like ... big house, cold stone, solitude, intense loneliness.)

[kate_nepveu]

that's totally understandable! for me the ultimate takeaway was the kindness and the connections, but all those other things are an extremely major part of the book.

[troisoiseaux]

ISN'T IT GOOD??? I plan on re-reading it sooner rather than later.

I got very Prospero and Ariel vibes from the Other and Piranesi, and only towards the end realized how accurate of an assessment that was.

[skygiants]

oh BOY yeah that's sure in there, isn't it!

I think part of what fascinates me about it is how scary the premise is, in so many ways -- it's a very uneasy book, for me, which is part of the draw. As I said to someone else right after I finished it, uncomfortable in the grit-oyster-pearl kind of way.

[sophia_sol]

would you recommend those other things you compare Piranesi to? Because I'd love to read more things that evoke similar feelings!

[skygiants]

I would recommend all of them in various ways! I've not read the book Annihilation but as a film definitely walks closer to the horror side of the line (there's some body horror and jump scares) and is nowhere near as ... coherent ....? ... but is also gorgeously shot and scored and deeply evocative. (This vid gives something of a sense of the visuals though I don't know how well it works if you don't know much about the film ...)

Lud-in-the-Mist I found a really weird and sad and thought-provoking experience, I think it's definitely been a very strong influence on Clarke in a number of ways but the messaging is much more ambiguous even than Piranesi which already is quite ambiguous. Wylding Hall on the other hand is definitely not as philosophically dense and is just a straight shot of pure eerie Atmosphere, takes like an hour to read but is incredibly immersive for that hour!

[sophia_sol]

ooh thanks, this is great to know! :)

[lirazel]

It's certainly a unique experience and amazing example of craft imo. It works on so many levels: pure plot, characterization, themes, metaphors, everything. Obviously the first read, you're just trying to put together what's going on, which was a very satisfying experience, but I feel I could return to it and pay attention to specific things--characterization, themes, allusions, etc.--and learn a lot. Definitely at some point I want to reread it with an eye to learning how did she do that?

[skygiants]

Yeah! I have NO idea how she did that! I don't know if I'll ever really have a solid idea but that's definitely a book I finished and was like "I am going at some point to read this Again and it will be a very different experience"

[ceitfianna]

I also thought of Wylding Hall while reading it and yes, very much of an experience kind of book than a plot kind of book.

[skygiants]

It's a really deeply layered book -- much more so than Wylding Hall, imo -- but what they've got in common is this overwhelming, uncanny sense of atmosphere that just pulls you straight in and does NOT let you go.

[raven]

Oh I loved that book so much and you describe it so well.

[skygiants]

Thank you! it took me like twice as long as I thought it would to write this post, lol, I just kept staring at a blank entry page while mentally waving my hands around and shouting "the atmosphere though!"

[chimney_swift]

I had a similar experience reading it! It was so all-encompassing. My mother also read it, and has been frustrated at how little she's found written on it that dives into all the layers and lenses you can find in it.

[skygiants]

Yeah, for such a small book it's got so much richness to it -- there's just an enormous amount going on under the surface and it feels like you're only ever scratching a bit of it. I'd love to know what you've found about it if there was anything interesting though!

[chimney_swift]

As far as I've heard (second-hand from my mom), all the reviewers are like, "fantasy! Allegory! Mental health!" And she's sitting there fuming talking about The Tempest as a starting point and how she's sure there are so many other layers. :)

[asakiyume]

Coming back and nodding with satisfaction, having just finished the book. Wonderful. Wonderful.