(no subject)

[skygiants]

I'd sort of been dreading getting through Scales of Gold, the fourth book in the Niccolo series, because I knew it was the Africa one and . . . to put it bluntly, I love Dunnett but I like to think I am clear-eyed about her flaws and I really did not trust her to do Africa. On the other hand, I had also been looking forward to it because it introduces the awesome that is The Heroine! The Boulder was conflicted. :O

I was sort of right on both of these, although Africa was not quite as bad as I feared. I mean, she's clearly making an effort to emphasize that Africa is absolutely not a monolithic Continent of Savage Darkness, that in fact many places in Africa have a long history of culture and learning, and that it really, really does not need White Dudes to Come Save It, and I respect these efforts from her! And I also respect her willingness to show a realistic range of fifteenth-century attitudes about slavery, on all sides. At the same time, though, she often can't quite manage to break out of the Exoticized Adventure Fiction tropes, which makes for a few very othered characters and pretty cringeworthy scenes. I'm similarly conflicted about Loppe/Umar, Nicholas' BFF/partner/semi-confidante. On the one hand, he gets a ton of agency in this book and gets to do a really impressive amount of puppetmastering for the Greater Good, which is a prerogative that is usually reserved for Dunnet's actual titular heroes! In that respect, he may be one of the most narratively privileged and respected characters of the series, which is pretty cool. On the other hand, one of the stated goals of his puppetmastering is Nicholas' Growth as a Person, which tips him perilously close to the Magical. On the other other hand, he actually gets to eventually have a happy and fulfilled life that he has created for himself without any help from Nicholas, which, again, makes him one of the most narratively privileged characters in the series. So I think I would be cool, if DD did not then turn around and fridge him (and it is totally fridging) at the very end of the book to make Nicholas angry. That made me angry the first time I read it, before I even knew the term 'fridging,' and it makes me angrier now.

(As a sidenote, I also found it hilarious how getting to Ethiopia was IMPOSSIBLE, IMPOSSIBLE, THE FEAT THAT CAN NEVER BE ACCOMPLISHED, because I kept thinking back to the Elizabeth Wein books, where people sail cheerfully from England to Ethiopia every other page.)

On the other hand: this book totally ups the ante on female characters. COLD REVENGE-DRIVEN SUPERINTELLIGENT HEROINE who invites herself along on an epic doomed voyage for the sole purpose of bitching at her enemy the whole way. I LOVE HER. (And Bel! Cheerfully shrewd old Scottish ladies for the win. And they actually managed to pass the Bechdel test, which is pretty astounding, considering how few people in the books ever talk about anything but Nicholas. And Bel is all, "she is so awesome, I would take her home with me and be BFF with her even if she hated the whole world! . . . well, actually she does hate the whole world. OH WELL, STILL BFF.") I - I am kind of embarrassed by how much I actually ship Gelis/Nicholas. I AM SORRY I occasionally have a thing for OTPs where their entire lives are centered around Machiavellianing each other into misery. ;_; It is a sickness, I know. But, I mean, okay:

GELIS: I hate you for getting my sister pregnant and then getting her married to a jerk, who is incidentally your father, and then getting her dead.
NICHOLAS: Okay, fair. In that case, maybe it's better if we just kind of avoid each other -
GELIS: I HAVE A BETTER IDEA. Why don't I come to Africa with you and make your life a constant misery the whole way :D? And that way if I die on the voyage you'll feel EXTRA GUILTY!
NICHOLAS: . . . Philippa just wanted to come to Constantinople with Lymond to help him babysit. D:

GELIS: By the way, did I mention I'm a genius, knowledgeable about trade, am learning Arabic, and am probably your perfect woman.
NICHOLAS: . . . I am starting to notice this, yes.
GELIS: ALSO, now that I have nursed you through babbling hallucinating sickness, I know all your most painful secrets. The better to eviscerate you with my verbal and emotional barbs, my dear!
NICHOLAS: My god, you are my perfect woman.

GELIS: Okay, I'll sleep with you, but I am warning you now that this is just to mess with your head even more. Also because you're really attractive and occasionally you can make me laugh.
NICHOLAS: My head: efficiently messed with. MARRY ME.
GELIS: Ehhhhhh, no.
NICHOLAS: Why won't you make an honest man of me? I want to settle down and start a family! ;_;
GELIS: CRY MOAR.

NICHOLAS: Okay, it has been a couple years, we've both grown as people, I almost died, we just had some really hot sex . . . will you marry me NOW?
GELIS: Wellllllll I kind of have my own life now, and I could pretty happily go my own way and have nothing more to do with you and our ridiculously complex emotional issues . . . but okay.
NICHOLAS: YAY! :D :D :D
GELIS: HAHAHAHA SUCKER. Our marriage was all an elaborate scheme of mine to get COMPLETE ANNIHILATING REVENGE for my sister and make your life a living hell forevermore! And you totally thought I was the heroine of the series, didn't you. BUT IN FACT I AM YOUR ULTIMATE ENEMY. :D?
DOROTHY DUNNETT: Actually, Gelis, you are the heroine of the series.
GELIS: . . . . D:
NICHOLAS: . . . . Philippa was NEVER EVER this mean to Lymond.
DOROTHY DUNNETT: That's because I like Lymond more. Also, dude, you are the guy who will eventually ruin Scotland for the lulz, and it would be way too mean to your love interest if she was actually nice. Also, SHUT UP, GELIS IS AWESOME. Enjoy the next four books of out-Magnificent Bastarding each other before you finally get a happy ending!
NICHOLAS: . . . . . 'kay.

(FANDOM: But Gelis is an Evil Woman who is meeeeeeeeeean to Nicholas. D: D:
BECCA: SHUT UP, GELIS IS AWESOME.)

I should note: I am not usually that interested in romances where it is just clear that one party is ridiculously bad for the other one, who is relatively sane, because I often just want to tell the sane one to get the hell out of there. (It does not help that the crazy damaged one is usually the guy, who can get away with anything, and the girl has to be nice and sweet and innocent. Double standard!) But I do have a secret weakness for pairings where BOTH parties are completely Machiavellian and manipulating and insane. Hey, better that they end up together than with anyone else, right?

So, guys: indulge my secret weakness! Tell me about your favorite TOTALLY INSANE AND UNHEALTHY OTP. (KYOUYA/AZULA!)

Comments

[wakeupnew]

Okay, this doesn't entirely count because they genuinely love the hell out of each other, but Clay and Gemma on Sons of Anarchy are TOTALLY BATSHIT and yet somehow totally adorable together. He is ruthless and scary as fuck and very menacing; she is ruthless and scary as fuck and very menacing and her picture should be next to 'manipulative and Machiavellian' in the dictionary, and they are both pretty crude/lewd, AND YET. ADORABLE.

[skygiants]

That totally counts! It is best when they are both completely ruthless and scary and terrifying and still love each other the most. PARTNERSHIP OF EQUALS FTW. o/

[wakeupnew]

Oh, it is so not a partnership of equals. Women may not be allowed in the motorcycle gang, and Clay may technically be the president and may think he's in charge, but Gemma is a stone cold fabulous psychopath who runs everything. EVERYTHING. The creator of the show himself refers to her as a megalomaniac. She recently has found religion, but instead of the experience mellowing her, she has decided that it is God's Will that she smites her enemies. It's delightful. *_______*

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Vetinari/crazy vampire lady whose name I forgot! I don't know many bad guys. XD

[skygiants]

Ooh, I forgot about them! I have not read the newest one yet but I hear there is more of them in that?

[villainny.livejournal.com]

I haven't read it either. I am behiiiiiiiinds.

[campkilkare]

Yes, a little.

[littledust.livejournal.com]

Well, there is always LOGAN/VERONICA for unhealthy OTPs, ignoring the way that S3 was determined to paint Logan as someone a sane person would ever actually want to date. I also like Azula/Ty Lee!

CLAMP pretty much reigns supreme on unhealthy OTPs, so I'll just pick Seishirou/Subaru as my very favorite one.

I am sure there are so many more I am not thinking of right now. I have a Thing for these relationships.

[skygiants]

Azula/Ty Lee! That is totally another one of my very guilty ships. SO UNHEALTHY. AND YET . . .


I would never ever have guessed. *solemn*

[littledust.livejournal.com]

TY LEE'S BENDINESS WILL SAVE HER FROM THE LIGHTNING. Maybe.

[sdelmonte]

Green Arrow and Black Canary. Yes, they've been together on and off since 1970 or so. But Oliver Queen is the world's worst monogamist, and Dinah really, really should have gotten out of this relationship a long time ago. And certainly before they got married.

But they have such great chemistry, for fictional characters on a printed page. They work well together, they manage each other's foibles, and they really do love each other.

[skygiants]

Man, there is definitely something about people who are kind of terrible for each other (in fiction) - the relationships with the best chemistry are often the ones I would never wish on anyone I knew in real life!

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

Lemony Snicket/Beatrice 1.

He's a morose author with an enormous vocabulary and a tendency to write plays riddled (in both senses of the word) with secret codes, and the reports of his death have been greatly and intentionally exaggerated!

She's an intelligent and lovely (in other literary worlds, these two encomiums would go in the opposite order) keeper of bats who doesn't have time for his balderdash, a word which here means "bullshit".

Their love is never meant to be, and in fact, I would not be so very fond of their relationship if it weren't marked off as Totally Impossible from the dedications page of Book 1. And yet, it is so gloriously hilariously tragic that I cannot help but adore it.

[skygiants]

*cracks up*

I did not see this coming, and I totally should have.

(An enormous overdose of hilarious tragedy is always one of the best things about Snicket!)

[rymenhild.livejournal.com]

I'm suddenly acquiring thoughts about how the term OTP carries the implication "They should live happily ever after together," or at least, in the cases in which they don't (Will/Lyra comes to mind), "They should always love each other and wish they were living happily ever after together." Really interesting relationships aren't always lifelong. Actually, that's on the list of interesting things about the Snicket books; marriages and long-term relationships can only remain stable until death if the partners die young!

[elspeth-vimes.livejournal.com]

One of the very, very few pairings that I ship like burning that is not an official couple (in spite of the hints, damn they love to shiptease us), is Motoko/Batou, in their Stand Alone Complex forms (though I ship them in the movies too, but they're really different characters there). She's distant and kind of emotionally abusive! He's willing to nearly die in order to get her her accessories back! And yet they work so well together and I love them. ;_;

I must also third Lord Vetinari/Lady Margolotta, who are indeed seen enjoying each other's company in Unseen Academicals.

[skygiants]

I have to admit, call me gender-biased all you want, but I am SO MUCH MORE LIKELY to be sold on a couple when the lady is the distant/emotionally abusive one (and the narrative doesn't vilify her for it.) Look, it happens so often the other way around that it is boring!

(Also, I have to say, if they are the couple in your icon, I am kind of enthralled by the gentleman's crazy eyes.)

>:D eeeeexcellent.

[gules]

hee! oh man, that is such an accurate summary of the niccolo books.

which, i have to say, i don't like nearly as much as the lymond chronicles—mainly because i feel like so much of what nicholas is up to, half the time, is behind the scenes even for the reader. so then there's a lot of slogging-through-incomprehensibility. but i admit, the issue may be less dunnett's writing than my own slowness: i read them one summer when i was (a) much younger and (b) sick, so they may well deserve a reread.

and it's true that i'm at least a bit of fandom's opinion, as you've given it above (is there an actual dunnett fandom, in the sense of fic-production?) in that i don't really love gelis all that much. i think a lot of that is because we never really get into her head, so all we see is her machinations. and i know, i know, she has a reason for them, and we're given it, but it's difficult to identify with that in the abstract.

[skygiants]

I felt pretty much the same way you did the first time I read them - I didn't find them anywhere near as compelling as the Lymond books, and I was not super-bowled-over by Gelis either. I think it definitely helps to be reading them for the second time and kind of have an idea of what's going on.

Also, I think that by the time I am reading them now, I am way more inclined to embrace ANGRY REVENGE-DRIVEN SCHEMING LADIES than I was when I was sixteen. In part just because I have seen so many ANGRY REVENGE-DRIVEN SCHEMING GENTLEMEN pop up in fiction and get a free pass over and over again because of their ~backstory angst~ that it is kind of a huge relief to have the shoe on the other foot for a change! And much as I love Philippa (and I do love her a lot!) it is also kind of a nice change to have a love interest who is actively giving as good as she gets or more, rather than being a nice girl who is jerked around by the hero's opaqueness and emo.

(I do not think there is actually much of a fic-producing fandom, though there are fansites and discussion boards and such. Then again, I would be way too intimidated to try to produce Dunnett fanfic, so . . . I guess that's not surprising! I am however told that there exists at least one hilarious Jerott/Mary Sue.)

[mercuriazs.livejournal.com]

ahahahahahahaha this Gelis person sounds AMAZING.




Can my favorite crazy horrible pairing be Scarecrow/Joker? Does that ... count? Or is it a cheap crazy shot?

[skygiants]

SHE IS ICE COLD AWESOME. If I remember correctly, her gambit in the next book is to take off, pregnant with a kid who may be his or MAY BE HIS ARCHENEMY'S, and set a bunch of traps for him as he chases her around Europe. OTP *_*


*cracks up* It may be a cheap shot, but I KIND OF SUSPECTED you might say that anyways.

[ashen_key]

ARTHUR AND MORGAN LE FEY. They are siblings! She is LITERALLY insane! And occasionally tries to kill him! But he always forgives her! And they are fucked up and obsessive and possessive AND I SHIP THEM SO BADLY.

...Also, these two *points to icon* AJ and Sands at least have equal opportunity trying to kill each other (and he succeeds), but dear god I LOVE THEM. She shoots at him! And he says 'are you trying to give me a boner?' and 23rwsduilfkjd <3 <3 <3

(Also, I am kinda in love with Gelis from this description. Am sure you are surprised)

[skygiants]

*giggles* I remember reading your epic ship post about AJ and Sands, and it made me laugh and also filled me with joy. There is just something about a couple that are really good at trying to kill each other, man!

(I AM SHOCKED AND ASTOUNDED.)

[miseline.livejournal.com]

This may be beside the point, but what does fridging mean? What you might think it does? (Another thing, I love Logan/Veronica, the only couple out of the ones you're discussing here that I've actually heard of. *Crawls away to hide in shame.* In another life/persona I might have shipped them, but I'll say no more about that.)

[skygiants]

You may know lots of this already, but I am going to pontificate anyways! The term 'fridging' as I use it comes out of Women in Refrigerators Syndrome, which refers to all those times when women die in fiction for the sole purpose of giving the men in their lives more angst. Even though 'fridging' really refers only to women, I sometimes use it for characters of color too in the same context: the point, for me, is the gratuitous death and the implication that the only narrative worth these characters have is their emotional impact on the White Dude Hero, who is the real driving force of the story. In this specific case, the character I'm talking about has settled down in Timbuktu with a wife and kids; his BFF the hero goes home; several months later, on the hero's wedding night, he receives notice that the character and his wife and kids have all been brutally killed. The hero is never going to go back to Timbuktu and would never have encountered these characters again in any case, which means that there is no plot relevance to the deaths except to give him dramatically timed angst, and that is why I term it fridging and why it makes me mad!

(*laughs* There is no shame in shipping Logan/Veronica! It is not a ship of mine, but I can certainly see the appeal.)