(no subject)

[skygiants]

A sociological query:

So when I hang out with a guy one-on-one, unless an actual move is made or romantic intent clarified beforehand, my baseline assumption tends to be: not a date. This holds true whatever the activity; I wouldn't automatically consider going to a movie with a female friend to be part of courtship behavior, so why should it be so for a male friend?

I'm not ranting or anything, just curious. The assumptions other people make and the assumptions I make often do not seem to be the same. Am I crazy out of the loop, or just naive? I ask you, O Wise LJers, where do your assumptions fall?

Comments

[agonistes]

My baseline assumption for being-out-with-guy and yours match. If I know we're both heterosexual, though, and I know we're both single, I am slightly more likely to be Paying Attention, and slightly more likely to take extra care with my appearance. That may be a cultural thing from upbringing, though.

[skygiants]

*nods*

Yeah, I notice myself taking extra care with my appearance as well - but I usually do that when I'm hanging out with anyone when it's a planned thing, I think, as opposed to spur-of-the-moment.

I Pay Attention too, but I don't think I would so much if I knew there were . . . normalized assumptions? Thing? Because as it is I'm never sure if they match.

[jezrana.livejournal.com]

For me it depends largely on how the invitation to said activity was intended, but like Sweeney says, I'm more inclined to wonder "...is this a date?" if conditions of mutual heterosexuality and singleness are met.

Also who's paying. I've had a guy offer to pay for me on what I didn't consider a date and gone "...uh. Thanks, but I've got it." But then, I like to at least split the cost of things ("I'll buy popcorn if you buy tickets", etc.) even when I know it's a date.

[skygiants]

*makes face* The paying thing bothers me. I generally don't ever let a guy pay for my stuff, unless it's a matter of "oops, I didn't bring enough to cover this," at which point there will be paying back. And I know I am much more vigilant about making sure that everything balances out exactly equally with guys than with girls - in part in backlash, I think, against assumptions that guys will be paying (I've had guys offer to pay for my stuff on outings that I know are not dates, most memorably two guys at once trying to pay for my coffee. Come on, dudes) and in part because, in the event that it is something like a date, I really don't want to start out feeling like I owe something.

[jezrana.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Last boyfriend paid for both of us sometimes, and I didn't make a fuss over it, but mostly we'd both pay for ourselves or take it in turns. And that's the way I prefer things, for pretty much the same reasons.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

I never assume date. Because I look like a mushroom.

:D?

[skygiants]

Lies! *makes faces at you* I reject your sociological evidence based on clear falsehood in the secondary statement, and add that perhaps if you do not assume date more often you should. :P

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

Don't assume date, but do sometimes suspect date if sexuality is in alignment. Mutual singularity not always required for suspect . . . ance.

Not related, will you be in CA this summer?

[skygiants]

*nodnod* Suspecta...bility? is something I see as eminently reasonable! Er. Translated, I usually find myself slightly suspecting, but leaning more towards the other direction unless explicit statements take place.

Not related: No, but I will be in CA until June 13th, which I expect has some overlap? :D

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

WHOO!

um, can you borrow a book from Stanford for me? :D

*looks reliable. maybe.*

It is the only library on the west coast that has . . .

[skygiants]

I think such could be arranged! Book is which?

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

\o/

Olivier Besancenot, Revolution! 100 mots pour changer le monde.

>.>

[skygiants]

When do you return to Western shores?

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

In the strange hours between Saturday and Sunday!

[skygiants]

Of next week? :O :D!

Week of after-nextness I will also have a Carrie on these same shores. And also presumably a book for you. There should be speaking of these things!

[schiarire.livejournal.com]

*clutches head* No idea when will be where doing what in CA! Speaking of later. *flees*

[emmlet.livejournal.com]

That has always been my baseline assumption, and ever since I got engaged I've assumed it's everyone else's baseline assumption when they hang out with me as well. (and if it's not, um. i can't help them there.)

However I do have guy friends that I hang with one-on-one sometimes and while I've never gotten suspicious, other people have... not gotten suspicious, but there's the occasional raised eyebrow. 'oh, it's just you and [boy]? is Mr. Emmy okay with that?' Which always just makes me a little bzuh? because a) what business is it of yours? and b) no, of course he's not okay with that. it troubles him deeply. in fact, he's special-ordering a burqa so no other man may even look upon me without his permission.

I think there are some people who believe Harry and Sally in that a man and a woman (or man-man, woman-woman, etc) can't be friends, and some who don't, and assumptions vary depending on that belief. I think they can, so.

[skygiants]

*grins* That's sort of what brought the query on (although I have no Mr. Emmy currently to potentially disturb) - spent the afternoon hanging out with [boy], and roommate was like, "How was your date?" Further attempts to explain non-date-itude met with skepticism! But I have several male friends whom I hang out with mano a (wo)mano whom I would never date, so this is very strange to me. Silly Harry and Sally.

I bet you could get a very snazzy-looking burqa.

[jothra]

That's an excellent question.

...

Let me know when you find out the answer, because seriously, I'd like to know.

[skygiants]

*grins* I'm feeling a bit like Mary. Next step: carry a large notebook around and demand answers of everyone I meet.

[jothra]

!!!

I feel this is an awesome plan. Especially if you intensely quiz those who ask you out for suspicious 'non-dates'. Make sure to ask what their fathers do, and if they have already started their IRAs.

Just in case, you understand.

[skygiants]

Of course! I may also ask their opinions on the death penalty and elephants, just to be absolutely certain.

[sdelmonte]

OK, my dating phase was a long time ago, and in a very different setting but...

I tended to assume that if I called up a girl and asked her out, it was pretty clear what my intent was. And usually, if she wasn't interested in that way, she made it clear fast. It was only in the last yeras of being single, when I was comfortable with just hanging out, that the rules shifted.

[skygiants]

*thoughtful* I think that may be where some of the ambiguity lies, yeah - and why I ask, because I don't think the rules have necessarily shifted for everyone. Or if they have they have shifted oddly. It's wording, too. Like, I tend to see a pretty significant difference between someone asking me to "go out" with them and asking me to "hang out" with them, but I do not know if that distinction is something that everyone makes.

[bansidhe]

My assumptions match: I've had many more guy friends than women, actually, so I do not assume date unless 1) it's been specifically brought up, or 2) he attempts to pay for everything.

Also perhaps worthy of noting, I've generally been the one asking the other person on a date: I usually beat the other person to the punch. ;)

[skygiants]

"Attempt to pay" I don't necessarily see as a sign of date, but in part that's just because, for East Coasters, the boys 'round where I grew up (or at least the ones I know) are disturbingly ready to pay for girls' stuff.

*grins* That has been the case a few times for me as well.

(Except sometimes I am actually just asking the person to hang out with no date implications! And then I worry that they think I mean it the wrong way, because, silly mismatched assumptions again.)

[furikku.livejournal.com]

Dating is a weird and nebulous thing, I've noticed, probably because we, as a culture, are functioning on traditions born when there was a social segregation of male and female, while living in a society where that segregation is no longer fully in effect. (Also, annoying obsession with romantic and sexual relationships.)

I think the sane thing to do is to assume that all hangoutage- heterosocial or otherwise- is hangoutage, and a date is only a date if agreed-upon by both parties beforehand. Of course, this means that very few people think that way, because apparently talking about things takes the romance (read: TERRIFYING AMBIVALENCE) out of things. >_>;

tl;dr version: Yeah, I agree, but I think most people don't because they don't think about it realistically and watch too many romance flicks.

[skygiants]

*nodnod* Although what's also interesting is that everyone around where I am, at least, constantly proclaims that "DATING IS DEAD" and "NO ONE DATES AT COLLEGE", and yet 'a date' still seems to be the baseline assumption. Which is . . . weird and contradictory.

Actually coming and saying expectations outright! OH NOES! But - but that might actually make things easy! Although, to be fair, romance flicks tend to more promote the "stalking is romantic!" mindset, wherein the guy who drives frantically after you in a taxi or follows you onto an airplane and publicly humiliates you is The One.

[furikku.livejournal.com]

"DATING IS DEAD" and "NO ONE DATES AT COLLEGE"

I believe that this is wishful thinking on the part of people who are terrified that they will never actually get a steady date. *Nodnod*

romance flicks tend to more promote the "stalking is romantic!" mindset

Urgh, yes. I have never been able to understand the allure of that sort of plot. -_-;

[skygiants]

Alternately (because I hear it from professors a lot) Older Generation folks who understand the new rules no better than we do, and decide that that means that they don't exist.

And me neither. *makes faces* I think it's to do with the great Proving Of His Love After Much Trial, but eh.